0.8 New Hero Balancing Thread

[Moonknight]

We started to have good discussion on the new version .8 heroes in the "Unit Updates for Version 0.8" thread, it definitely needs its own one!

Some starting talking points...

The Barbarian - is he too strong? Starts off as 30 STR and 3 HP. STR can be increased by 10 with only 5 points (up to 70 STR) and HP can be increased by 1 with 15 points (up to 5 HP).

The Horse Lord - is he too strong? Can get to +25 leadership in open terrain by level 4, he's fast and has the highest UL

The Assassin - can get up to 80% group ambush in level 8, impossible to compete against?


KGB suggested that maybe heroes should have different experience leveling which I think is a fantastic idea (as long as it is fully explained).

[Maze]

Where can I find these heroes? Or read more about them?

[Igor]

We ought to discuss them mostly of all. If they will be like they are, doesn't matter little changes in other units. That will be no more than greate storm in a cup of tea.
And not everyone even know where to see this heroes. That would be a big surprise for many players.

[LPhillips]

Any way will be good, just to stop him of being 70/3 or 60/4 at level 3.

Gross exaggerations are counter-productive, Igor. Even before the recent adjustment this was impossible. Please don't lower this discussion to complaining the loudest until we get our way. Let's not go there. Many games have been hurt by that behavior.

If they will be like they are, doesn't matter little changes in other units. That will be no more than greate storm in a cup of tea.

You're quickly approaching trolling with these posts. Try to avoid directly tearing down our gracious developers with every post. They've let you, and all of us, enjoy their work for free for a long time. It would have been best if you'd waited to get into this until they revealed the new heroes, which are actually a wonderful, welcome addition to the game and an excellent reward for dedicated players. You need to put on the brakes. This is supposed to be their moment of revelation and happiness, not time for you to blow up the forums over things not being perfect at their first try, and act as if this game is coming to an end. Even if it does, it's not your baby, it's theirs.

[LPhillips]

As for actual balance discussion, since it's already broached:

I see KGB's point about the Barbarian, but remember that 70/3 is only possible at level 6 right now. With my proposal, it's also level 6 but the hero isn't useless at early expand. Moonknight, I'm looking at the actual current stats of the Barbarian. The game in which we are playing together has the outdated version (where incidentally HP was 5 points each, if people really want something outdated to get upset over). I cannot say if there is a display bug, but the old game originally showed 3hp, 5 for +1, and the new game has always shown 2hp, 15 for +1. My understanding is that Snotling fixed the stat display and gain in our game, but heroes generated before the fix still have the 3HP.

KGB, within Warbaron's system, the proper implementation of xp scaling would be to give Barbarian a low learning ability. Maybe 80, with +5% per purchase instead of +10. It's also a bit silly to examine the Barbarian flying around on his own in a vacuum. Trading that for a level 6 hero on the front line is an important consideration. You might as well compare him to a level 4 Valkeria with a Griffon doing the exact same thing, which is far more likely and more easily done.

Peeps, the biggest thing to consider here is opportunity cost. We need to take the time to actually compare these heroes with the others, not just get upset over their new untested abilities. With the Barbarian at strength 2, it's risky to do anything with him early on. Remember that hero XP is a precious commodity. If you sacrifice your expansion to level these heroes like Barbarian and Horse Lord, you've already balanced the scales.

For my opinion, absurd is when +25 leadership at level 4.
This hero is not for ruins, like Valkyria. His task is to lead army group to opponent's rear. And no defence of him.
My offer shown in previous message seems to me as very reasonable, if we don't wish to get another demon.

Igor, I won't address your direct statements of arbitrary nerfs without any testing for two reasons.
1) You keep stating falsehoods as if they are truths, and then move to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever.
2) You haven't tested the heroes, and just because I suggested a nasty way of using the Horse Lord you're ready to implement an arbitrary nerf that wouldn't actually solve the problem. This is called alarmist behavior, and we need time to see the heroes in action before throwing a fit.

To elaborate: The Horse Lord has 12 starting UL, making him the most obvious hero for ruins ever. Heroes don't start at level 4. He does not have 25 leadership at level 4. There are three false statements in two sentences, one by assumption and two outright. It's 25 on one selected terrain type at level 4, and he never has any influence on battles within cities (where most battles take place). The only thing needed to fix this hero is to make it costly to level him (in time or opportunity cost). The most reasonable options are to remove his high UL, making it hard for him to gain xp (since he can never support normal battles within cities), to scale his XP (which is an entirely new system for Warbarons), or to reduce his base Learning ability (which is not as effective as removing his UL, but leaves him more fun to play).

Anyway, why are you ignoring the Assassin? He is the one who is going to be giving you fits if you don't have him and your opponents do. He's the one who is going to be dominating small maps. It's very short-sighted to overlook a hero with +10% group ambush per level and a lot of other goodies available. "Does he have extra move? City chaos? Ambush? Is he hiding another hero? What did my opponent choose?" Since we're just going to assume that level 4 is so easy to get on a support hero, consider that he has 50% group ambush at level 4. Goodbye to your expensive units.

[Igor]

Site moderators deserve many thanks for development of this game, of course.

But we ought to discuss all together. I mean next: we have 7 pages discussing about little changes in units and no one page to discuss about the heroes which are mostly needs to be changed. That was a reason why I called discussing of units without discussing of heroes as greate storm in a cup of tea. Heroes - are that we ought to discuss first of all when they have such stats.

You even didn't open to all, where is possible to see their stats.
(They are here: http://www.warbarons.com/premium.php)

And I am sure that payment question ought to be discussed as well. I would like to pay for membership but not for heroes. And to pay not with credit card but with world-wide payment system like Webmoney, about which I talk to site moderators some months ago.

[Igor]

LP, pay more attantion and you will understand better.
Horse Lord have +5 L in open and cost 15 per +10 additional L.
Level 4 gives 30, which may be used for +20 additional L, total this will be +25 L in open.
How to use this for crushing opponent's rear is shown in previous messages. No alternative to him.

And if you are test such things like new heroes, would be better for comunity to discuss all you are doing in full silent. If you didn't think to make big surprise to all.
You test a 'nuclear bomb' and keep silence.

[LPhillips]

The language barrier is definitely the problem here.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Your right about starting the learning at 80 instead of 100. I completely forget that's possible to start with <100 and doing that serves like increasing the XP table.

While a Valkrie/Gryffon is like a Barbarian/Eagle it's not exactly the same. For one thing the Barbarian is immune to Anti-Air while the Gryffon must always fear Wizards/Elves etc. Also the Valkrie power is only while attacking. Once you raze the city and are defending the Gryffon is just a plain 20 strength unit that is easily killed or just a 45 strength unit that is nice but nothing like a 70 strength unit.

Most importantly his strength/hits can't be negated by an Archon. The Assassin's Ambush power can't either. That's what makes these 2 heroes so attractive to me. They escape the dreaded Archon Negate.

Your right about the Assassin being powerful. He's tops on my list of new heroes to use. But I think he'll do MUCH better on large maps where he can quietly level to L5 or L6 without seeing much combat. By that time with a few Ghosts his stack will be closing in on 100% ambush making his stack invincible to any other single stack. He can get quick movement or Chaos (at a cheaper rate than the DK!) if desired instead of Ambush. Very very versatile.

KGB

[SnotlinG]

The Barbarian - is he too strong? Starts off as 30 STR and 3 HP. STR can be increased by 10 with only 5 points (up to 70 STR) and HP can be increased by 1 with 15 points (up to 5 HP).

Just a quick reply, Barbarians hp upgrade cost increases per hp, so:
3->4 cost 15p
4->5 cost 20p