Construction Ability - Does it work?

[KGB]

Anyone played with this yet?

I just increased my Construction ability to L2. At that point I should be getting a 10% discount on construction.

But when I go and check the city wall levels or the ability to purchase new units I am getting no discount. Is something wrong here?

KGB

[LPhillips]

The heroic construction ability is related to towers and cities in the tile on which the hero is standing, I believe. Are you confusing it for the global DLR ability?

It will only discount towers, tower upgrades, and rebuilding razed cities as far as I understand it. What you're describing would be something along the lines of 40% unit production discount, which would be break this money-centric game. It would be insupportable even if it required the hero to travel from city to city, initiating Green Dragon production at 1080 a pop or something equally absurd. Maybe, just maybe, it could be applicable to city walls when a hero is standing in that city.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Then it's another useless hero ability for your secondary points

I was indeed expecting to work like the DLR Engineering skill where it decreased costs on an game wide basis. I don't think the game would be broken if the percentages were kept in check. 40% is too high, but +5% per point capped at a 20% discount at skill level 5 would be fine.

Right now it's kind of pointless to be able to construct towers and upgrade them for cheaper costs when there are so many units that can already do that for you. Incidentally I tried to upgrade the walls in the city my hero was actually in and I got no discount. So it literally must be for Towers only which makes it even more useless.

Right now the only secondary skills worth taking are Learning and hero terrain move (water walk, fly, lava). You can take 1 UL upgrade for a Paladin to search L1 ruins but otherwise with UL temples and UL units you don't need more than that. In fact I think the hero terrain move at skill level 3 (hero level 4) when you can walk on water, fly, lava is WAY more powerful than a 10% discount on production buy (what you'd get at skill level 3 with 5% per level) given a Barbarian hero literally moves at will anywhere at that point as a 75/3 or 54/4 unit.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Barbarian is a bit too powerful with that ability. I've been pondering the question of what could balance him. Would it require a level limit (level 4 and up for that upgrade), making it cost more for him (probably too harsh), or perhaps limiting its application? Limit of 2 ups might work. Always fly is pretty big; ashwalk might be a bit too much for that hero.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I agree the Barbarian is a bit too good with that ability. I see 4 possible solutions.

1) Your minimum level requirement restriction (say L4) before a hero can start spending points in that skill.

2) Remove it from the list of secondary skills the Barbarian can take. Different heroes could then get access to different secondary skills.

3) Make that particular upgrade cost more for some heroes. So it could cost 2 points for the Barbarian and 1 for other heroes to upgrade that skill.

4) Make that secondary skill cost more points for all heroes (2 instead of 1). It is quite a lot more powerful than anything else besides learning.


I'd still like to see more useful secondary skills like the construction skill reduce costs of buying new production. I would be totally fine with 2 different skills: Production - Reduces cost of buying production by 5% per level capped at 20% (new skill). Construction - Reduces cost of building cities/towers and upgrading walls/towers at 10% per level capped at 40% (as now). These would work on an empire wide basis rather than hero only since on medium-large maps its impossible for heroes to move around enough for it to be used.

KGB

[LPhillips]

KGB, none of that seems unreasonable to me.

For the construction/production abilities, would you keep them as a skill or move them into Abilities? I'd expect a skill so that the cost could be adjusted on a per-hero basis. I would even be in favor of making it class-specific, so that it could only be purchased on leader-type heroes (maybe the main 3 + Horse Lord, or Paly+DK+HL). I don't see Assassins and Barbarians being architects and administrators, nor Valkeria for that matter. It's a bit of a balance issue for each of those heroes anyway due to their point gain/distribution.

As for the Barbarian, I'd be particularly in favor of restricting the level at which the hero movement abilities could be purchased. 4 isn't too low for that, and I don't think it is too high either. I'd prefer limiting it to level 2 before removing it. At that point it's just an extra instead of purchasing an eagle.
The only way I could see of implementing the increase in Ability Points would be to move it into a system using more points like the main hero points. 2x cost is a bit too steep for any ability on that screen. I doubt that's considered as an option; the simplicity of that system is a great design point when it comes to accessibility.

LP

[KGB]

LPhillips.

As for the Barbarian, I'd be particularly in favor of restricting the level at which the hero movement abilities could be purchased. 4 isn't too low for that, and I don't think it is too high either. I'd prefer limiting it to level 2 before removing it. At that point it's just an extra instead of purchasing an eagle.

I like the idea of L4 before being able to start spending points in that skill. It seems to me that being able to walk on water is something that only a higher level hero could do. Same with fly and fire walk (fire walk seems a better name than ash walk).

Another option we didn't talk about is making some other levels in that skill BEFORE Water Walking. For example L1 could be move on any terrain for a cost of 3, L2 could be move on any terrain for a cost of 2 then L3 could be Water Walk, L4 Fly, L5 Firewalk. That way not only do you have to be L4 to get WaterWalk but you also have to have spent 2 points (which if you just level restrict this skill means you can take LearningX2 then Water Walk)

For the construction/production abilities, would you keep them as a skill or move them into Abilities? I'd expect a skill so that the cost could be adjusted on a per-hero basis. I would even be in favor of making it class-specific, so that it could only be purchased on leader-type heroes (maybe the main 3 + Horse Lord, or Paly+DK+HL). I don't see Assassins and Barbarians being architects and administrators, nor Valkeria for that matter. It's a bit of a balance issue for each of those heroes anyway due to their point gain/distribution.

To me the whole hero system needs to be redone. Not now of course but in version 0.9.

Abilities - These are ALL stack/empire related
Leadership (includes sub categories like Leadership-when-attacking, leadership-in-terrain etc)
Chaos (includes sub categories like Chaos-in-city)
Group Assassination
Group Move
Group Anti-Air (new, not leadership anti-air that Archons cancel but just Anti-Air)
Negate Morale/Fear
Production
Construction

A hero would get access to 3 of these 8 only. So for example the Paladin could have Leadership, Construction and Production. An Assassin could have Assassination, Chaos-in-city and Move. A Valkrie could have Leadership-when-attacking, Anti-Air and Move. A DK could have Chaos, Construction and Assassination-when-attacking. A Horse Lord could have Leadership-in-terrain, Move, Production. A Barbarian could have Anti-Air, Move, Negate Morale/Fear. You get the idea.

Note that the costs of these will vary between heroes just as it does now for Leadership vs Leadership when attacking.


Skills - These are individual hero skills
Strength
Hits
Move
Assassination
Undead Lore
Pillage
Learning
Special Move (Water/Fly/Fire)

Heroes get access to 6 of the 8 (different heroes get access to different skills obviously so a Paladin wouldn't get assassination/pillage for example and an assassin might not get hits/strength).

The benefit you get is hero based so that spending 1 pt in strength gives +10 strength for a Barbarian but only +5 strength for a Paladin type thing. Basically like how UL lore works giving differing amounts to different heroes.

Note: Some skills will need to only be available to take at certain levels. For example restricting Special Move and Hits to only be selected say at every 3rd level (L4, L7, L10).

KGB

[Moonknight]

KGB, I like the Group/Empire Abilities versus Individual Skills concept.

I always thought a Hero's Strength, Movement, and now HP should be on the skills side.

[LPhillips]

It's an interesting concept. Seems more organized and intuitive than the current one.

I have also wondered why individual skills were split between the pages as they are.

[SnotlinG]

Small update done to Barbarian Hero: Divine movment is limited to level2 for him currently.
In next version the hero-skill system will be a bit reworked though, so we appreciate your feedback and ideas on this
We have some kind of tree-system in mind for the ability based skills.