0.8 New Hero Balancing Thread

[LPhillips]

The concept of +25 leadership as a cap is a bit hard to contain, but where does a reduction leave the Horse Lord as a hero? He's situationally useful at best for the moment; will he really even be that much if he's nerfed? He's good for a support hero, no doubt. Maybe his +leadership could be spread out over more levels, 5 points per purchase, so that players would have good reason to purchase his other great attributes like group move? I'd still want to see him cap at +25 so that he won't be a flavored-but-useless hero. Again, we're talking about a bonus that is useless in cities and even when maxed is only applicable to one terrain type. His real threat is as a support unit; a walking tower.

He tends to rule certain maps, especially those with few significant terrain features and choke points. He does not tend to be a generally useful hero. Is it time to consider restricting use of certain heroes on certain maps?

[KGB]

He tends to rule certain maps, especially those with few significant terrain features and choke points. He does not tend to be a generally useful hero.

I would amend this slightly to say small maps. For example even though Battlefield and Bullrun have lots of terrain favorable to the Horselord I don't think he's useful there. The reason being that those maps are very large, he can only be in 1 place, it takes a while to get to another place, he can't easily bring support stacks to replace losses, defenders have time to build specialized defenses/hero combos to kill him etc etc.

That's the big reason that I've never seen one in 15+ games now (1v1, team, FFA) on larger maps.

KGB

[Draxus]

I am trying him out in Chess right now. Fairly long areas between cities with some, and resource buildings, in the middle of desert "squares". It is big enough to make him useful, but not so big that the game goes on long enough to have many high level stacks around at end game to make him completely obsolete.

Haven't really used HL much in the other maps I like to play, usually small ones. I have been leaning toward the assassin and barbarian, but assassin more since the barb nerf.

[Igor]

His real threat is as a support unit; a walking tower

Yes, he is
The best tower I have ever seen.
Agree that on non-open map he is useless. And on very small map he is not able to get his abilities fast enough.

[Igor]

For example even though Battlefield and Bullrun have lots of terrain favorable to the Horselord I don't think he's useful there. The reason being that those maps are very large, he can only be in 1 place, it takes a while to get to another place, he can't easily bring support stacks to replace losses, defenders have time to build specialized defenses/hero combos to kill him etc etc.

That's the big reason that I've never seen one in 15+ games now (1v1, team, FFA) on larger maps.

KGB, soory man, I can see no one current game at you on Battlefield or Bullrun with new heroes. I can't believe you that your opponent didn't use HL on these maps. Just if you played with players not from top 10...

[Igor]

All said above only theory. If somebody interested to test HL in hard conditions, this is possible only in ladder game on the Battle Field, or Bullrunm or Central Sahara. Probably, Igor-LPhilips-KGB-... who else? I think Solo can join.
That can show to everyone what HL is.

If you are in, let me know.
I have very many games now, but I can spend time to this game, if all don't mind.

[KGB]

Igor,

Curious how you use him especially on Battlefield.

My games there have tended to yield something like 30 cities in 15-18 turns with an income of +1000 gold a turn and in 1v1 it only spirals to 50+ cities, 2000+ gold a turn by turn 25ish. That means the game is full of Demons/Dragons/Ghosts and other big powerful units. So much so that Heroes haven't mattered much because those units in large swarms will kill anything. I would think that most players would have a stack or 2 of 8 Ghosts ready to deal with any hero that dared come forward. I know I do and now I have an Assassin hero too.

That's why I thought I've never seen him (or used him) and figured on smaller maps where heroes may only reach L3 he'd be ideal because he is +25 at L3 in 1 terrain.

In any case what does it matter if he is really good on some maps and useless on others. Now everyone can use him so there is no advantage/disadvantage for anyone.

KGB

[LPhillips]

That's why I thought I've never seen him (or used him) and figured on smaller maps where heroes may only reach L3 he'd be ideal because he is +25 at L3 in 1 terrain.
KGB

I believe you mean level 4 (which is of course actually level 3, if you started with 0).

I'm not really big on "I told you so!", but the truth is that the new heroes have come down to just what I said they would. The Barbarian is an expansion hero, then nothing but a bodyguard in mid-late game. Even in small maps he is not the king if the opponent is any good. The Horse Lord is a support hero, difficult to level and useful only in certain situations. The Assassin is probably the best mid-late game choice of the 3, but with all of his useful abilities in the "Hero Skills" section, he remains a support hero. All points go right into Ambush. He's epic on defense but weak on attacking cities with more than 8 units defending, no matter how high his level.

The Horse Lord's problem is that he is so specialized right now: super-strong in one thing and worthless in everything else. Nerfing his ability won't help the situation. He's a combination of useless and overpowering. He's an extreme specialist.


~~~~~
The biggest help for these heroes (to reduce their caveats in both directions, weakness and strength) will be a reorganization of the hero leveling system. I propose a system where there are 3 ability sets on skill trees: Main Abilities, Support Abilities, Personal Abilities. It's impossible to properly balance things according to the current system.

This would also be the best place in the development timeline to add in new abilities and vary the heroes a bit. Some things like +morale and group movement urgently need to be separated so that we'll see more use of all hero abilities and more variation in the tactics available to players. Right now, choosing anything but the main ability and UL/Learning is disadvantageous to the player. You could have extremely fine-tuned balance control by which abilities you put into competition with each other. For example, if a Valkeria has both +movement and +morale in the Main Abilities section, you have raised the opportunity cost for using +movement by that much. Whereas the Horse Lord may have +Group Movement and +Morale separated, allowing the player to purchase each without sacrificing the other. You could do things like raise Paladin's +UL to 5, and put it in the same bracket as his +morale, forcing a tough decision but enabling the Paladin to be a real specialist if the player so chooses.

[Igor]

Ghm... This hero, as I see him in my games, very usefull on big maps with open terrain.
Current demons are weaker than old demons, they are max. 55 str.
5 demons, HL, Elephant and Valk go to you rear. Scouts and LC show where you have a lot of Ghosts, to walk around them.
Any thoughts to stop them? Another HL? That's show that HL can be stoped by only another HL.
You see this, saying that now everyone can use him and (because of this) no one have advantage.
But 2 months ago, when demons were max. 65, also no one has advantage.
But HL is as disbalanced as old demons were.
Sure, everyone can use HL, like everyone could use old demons.

Hush-hush, I like to use him
I don't mind to leave him the same, and I didn't mind against old demons.
Wish you don't play against me without HL on open maps if you wish to lift youself to the top of the ladder.

Three players from top 10 count that HL is disbalanced: me, Solo (we discussed HL on russian forum) and Argammon, who said above. Players who are not agree, are only 1 or 2.
Advantage is at our side May be administrators will see this.

[Igor]

LPhilips you played with me on Stratego map and you know better than KGB, what elephant is there. Imagine that elephant is now with HL and Valk. Nothing can stop them there.