0.8 New Hero Balancing Thread

[LPhillips]

LPhilips you played with me on Stratego map and you know better than KGB, what elephant is there. Imagine that elephant is now with HL and Valk. Nothing can stop them there.

Yes, but Stratego is a pretty poor map for a balance discussion (no offense to the creator).

Any map where you can reach/threaten the majority of a player's cities from one spot is completely atypical and not a valid example for discussion. You played a good game. However, it's important to note that I left that game because you took over Azrael and I couldn't compete with your income, not because Elephants dominated our competition. In fact, you never got them into my homeland to employ them. FFA games suffer from the ability of one player's incompetence to directly benefit another player, and Stratego's design (terrible for FFA games) exasperates the problem tremendously. In fact, Stratego by its nature is hardly ladder map material. It's fun, it's entertaining; it's not good for fair competition.

So, I have to throw out the example, but the point is still taken. The Horse Lord is a walking tower. However, the problem is not solved simply by nerfing that ability. The real problem is that he is an extreme specialist as I stated. He's overpowering in one way and useless in others. This is not what you'd call good game design, but we are still in the testing phase for this new hero and also for the game itself. The correct approach is to try and make him more versatile alongside the moderation of his power, not to remove his only valid use. Otherwise you'll have all of his present problems without his one strength.

[Igor]

I can't agree because I count Stratego one of 2 or 3 best maps of all.
It requires to count almost all steps and does not forgive blunders. Games on this map very and very interesting, as FFA as 1x1.

I agree that HL is a specialist for open terrain. But everyone will use him only on such terrain. And probably no one will use him in hills or in swamp. So, HL when he is in use, is able to show all what he can.

Hope you will have a couple of games on Stratego and on big open maps to understand how danger is HL, and to join to us who vote to downgrade HL a little.

[KGB]

Stratego is the classic example of a small map (says it's 100x100 but in reality the play area is 50x50) where the HL dominates as I said he would. I don't doubt he is a God there as I played a couple of games there in Beta5 so I know how important open bonus's are. Incidentally, a map that requires counting squares to win isn't a great map, it's a memorization map that doesn't allow for any variation.

But on bigger maps like Battlefield it's so easy to avoid him and go around him and attack your opponents cities. Just as you plan to use the HL to go around Ghosts. That's why it's not a big deal on those maps because the HL can't dominate the map from a central location as he can in Stratego. Hence why I said he was perfectly suited for small maps and not so useful on large ones.

LPhillips is right about the Hero system needing an overhaul. We've already started a discussion on that in another thread where all the skills would be re-organized more logically.

Personally I don't care if the HL is nerfed or not since I don't use him and I haven't seen him used (it will be interesting to see if anyone in the 8 player Bullrun game takes one). If he is unchanged he dominates a few maps that players can chose not to play (unlike Demons that dominated ALL maps) and if he is changed he just gets used that much less on those few maps where he is a great choice so that he may end up never being used.

KGB

[LPhillips]

KGB, Don't you think this thread is appropriate for the discussion? Or is it too crowded already?



Igor,

I know there is a language barrier. But I hope you will take the time to carefully read posts and consider what arguments are being made, and which ones are not. It would help in all of our forum discussions.

Respectfully,
LP

[Igor]

That's why it's not a big deal on those maps because the HL can't dominate the map from a central location as he can in Stratego.

Stratego has been changed now. After deleting a bless temple and adding 4 central cities, the central location doesn't mean so much. Current tactic seems to be connected more with occupation of central cities, than with central location.

What about HL, I haven't a task to downgrade him. If this will be, nobody will give me money or medal after this.
As a member of Warbarons community, I count reasonable to discuss HL on the forum. Hope that Piranha and Snotling will read all the signals about the hero, as for downgrading as for to leave him as he is.


Lphilips, I have read your post about reorganization of the hero leveling system. May be this will be good, who knows... Too serious changes can break the game what this is now. Rules and figures in chess aren't changed hundreds years and people like to play this game. Imagin that one morning people will discover that chess figures is changed, this will be a shock. Anyway, lets put a look on on of new reorganized heroes and discuss him, if you have an example.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I'd go with the other thread. This one is a bit too long now for anyone to read it start to finish and the hero re-organization that is going to happen really deserves it's own thread (or 2).

KGB