The Mighty Assassin & The New World Order

[kenc80]

I keep waiting to see "the other thread" on hero balance but I don't see it anywhere.

I am enjoying the new heroes but do they need a few tweaks? I've really enjoyed pairing the HL with the Assassin. The stack is super deadly. Actually, pairing the HL and/or the Assassin with the DK or Pally is also quite pretty.

So are we back to pairing heroes again? I just wonder if that was ever the intent of Steve back in the day. Were players in DLR stacking heroes as much as I'm seeing here? I don't mind if thats where we as a game and a community are pivoting too but I just want to point out that thats the way the game seems to be going. Not bad or good but worth noting IMO.

Anyways, I think the barbarian needs a little oomph in late game situations. He is just about worthless after turn 15. I get it that he's not going to be giving huge leadership morale to his stack but he needs SOMETHING I think. What if he had anti-swarm. I could see him happily wading into a swarm of scorpions and doing yeoman's work late in a game. What if he could pump up to -10 or -15 group anti-swarm or something. I dont know. Right now he's kind of like a Bud Light - starts off cool and refreshing but about 15 minutes in it starts to warm and becomes dreadfully reminiscent of another warm yellow liquid.

I know LP is about to take up and defend his mighty barbie that he loves so much but he just leaves me wanting. I love the HL bonuses please dont nerf him.

Cheers,

Ken

[Moonknight]

I think the thought is to change the hero system into more of a tree development. In that case, the Barbarian could possibly add leadership but at a cost a lot higher than a Paladin.

I've mainly stuck to the Assassins early on in games thanks to their high UL and nice pairing with Orcs, Wolfriders and Ghosts which I tend to produce a lot.

However, I've yet to get into later stages on large maps where I don't have a high leveled Paladin or DK to see if my Assassin is going to get ran over. I'm guessing building Archons will be important when utilizing Assassins only.

BTW, I saw (and I remember others mentioning this on the boards before as well) pairings of Pali/DK and Valk/DK greatly increase before the new heroes were released; and not just toward the end of games, but early on...

MK

[KGB]

KenC80,

Some Players stacked heroes in DLR. I know a couple of player who *love* make triple hero stacks in DLR trying to make an all-everything stack. Others prefer to have their heroes go solo. It's a matter of personal taste. Sometimes I stack in DLR and sometimes I stack in Warbarons. In both cases it depends on the game. In a 1v1 game on a 100x map or larger there is ZERO reason to stack heroes because there is so much map to cover that having 5 hero stacks is more useful than having 2 or 3. But on smaller maps (75x) or team/ big FFA games where there are limited resources (say max 10 cities) then stacking 2 heroes for more punch makes sense because they can control a map or your entire empire. The drawback being half XP when stacking the heroes which seems reasonable.

The Barbarian has Negate as his late game skill. You can raise it as high as 6 which makes him somewhere between a Unicorn and Devil. If I know a game is going to reach a late stage due to being a large map then I typically start acquiring Negate rather than a 4th or 5th hit (ie I take Strength at L2, L3, 1/2 at L4 giving me 70 total then Negate starting a L5. You can even start at L4 if you bless). Then he is useful with another hero due to strength and Negate. Regardless, the Barbarian is for expansion and then for defense where he can stop non-hero/non-killer stacks. He was never designed for offense unless it's on a small map where he can rush an opponent.

Personally I tend not to pair the Assassin with any other hero since I use him like MoonKnight does with lots of Orcs/Wolfriders/Ghosts but I know he's useful in any stack once he reaches 30% group ambush.

KGB

[kenc80]

KGB

Regardless, the Barbarian is for expansion and then for defense where he can stop non-hero/non-killer stacks. He was never designed for offense unless it's on a small map where he can rush an opponent.

See this is where I just dont get the love-fest with the barbie. At the start of the game with no negate (and really even with it) he's such a risk. If you front him to "use" him you run the risk of him dying. Im not willing to risk him on say a L1wall neutral with say a giant in there. Maybe a light inf or light cav. If the neutrals have Mino/Giant/Heavy Horse are you really running your barbie up there ordered to the front line? I just dont get the attraction.

I just dont love him. I'll take the pally everytime over him. At least he's bumping the stack up.

[ChickenChaser]

So, a level 8 assassin, with 3 ghosts and a flock of crows for fodder (104% ambush) can effectively eliminate any stack it comes across. Is there a call then for a unit or hero ability with the warding skill? Maybe awarded to the forgotten Dark Knight?

[KGB]

KenC80,

If you front him to "use" him you run the risk of him dying. Im not willing to risk him on say a L1wall neutral with say a giant in there. Maybe a light inf or light cav. If the neutrals have Mino/Giant/Heavy Horse are you really running your barbie up there ordered to the front line? I just dont get the attraction.

At L2 with 46 strength he is 100% guaranteed to beat a Giant/Hv Calv in a city with +0 wall bonus and 89% likely to beat that Giant/Hv Calv with +5 walls (If blessed to 51 strength he is 88% likely to beat a Minotaur in a +5 walls city). Thus as soon as he reaches L2 he is a one man wrecking crew. He just has to be babied until that time. Also at L2 he water walks so he can now effectively go off on his own and form a second stack for expansion.

I just dont love him. I'll take the pally everytime over him. At least he's bumping the stack up.

No problem. I understand. The Pally is still a good choice. You just sacrifice short term expansion for longer term stack bonus. So you need to be comfortable falling behind in the city race.

So, a level 8 assassin, with 3 ghosts and a flock of crows for fodder (104% ambush) can effectively eliminate any stack it comes across. Is there a call then for a unit or hero ability with the warding skill? Maybe awarded to the forgotten Dark Knight?

Not in my mind. Yes, he can kill any stack but will most likely be left with just the hero afterwards since Ghosts/Crows are going to lose every fight other than the ambush kill. So he's really a defensive specialist because if you just send in 1 cannon fodder stack and kill a couple of men in his stack then your Valk/Pally/DK/HorseLord hero stack or even just a RD+good units stack will mop up the Assassin + 5 companion units.

KGB

[Moonknight]

Yeah, you just have to have a second flock of crows trailing close behind

[LPhillips]

Ken,

You've somewhat disarmed me, but KGB stated it pretty well: the Barbarian is a tradeoff to gain early expansion. Thus, he's most valuable where early expansion gains you the most; in other words on wealthy maps. He also remains viable late-game if you can manage to get him into enemy territory. But he's not a main hero.

The new heroes are support heroes. Maybe I'm sounding like a broken record, but all 3 of them are. The best way to protect an Assassin is to stack him with a real hero stack, then pull him off and group him with a few ambush units when you want him to annihilate something. He's truly excellent on defense (Ambush to more than 8 units ftw) and weak on offense against any city with more than 8 units in it. He's actually weak on offense in general, as he tends to bleed units. Thus he's a support hero.

The HL is a support hero also. He's a moving tower, a ferry unit, whatever you want to call him. He isn't powerful on his own unless your enemy attempts to advance while standing on his home turf. Though if you could get him to level 6 or so with that +group move, and give him some real units that hit hard enough on their own, he wouldn't need another hero to accompany him into enemy territory.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new skill system. It would be excellent to be able to use our points in a less linear way.

LP

[piranha]

We have measured heroes for a couple of weeks and here is how people pick heroes. AI is not included in this data.

Unit Category Number Percentage
Paladin 758 21 %
Barbarian 758 21 %
Assassin 662 18 %
DreadKnight 495 13 %
HorseLord 480 13 %
Valkyria 420 11 %

[Moonknight]

That's about what I expected, I think the percentages for the new heroes will go down once the "newness" wears off, but not by much.

Barbarians will see a greater lift on small maps as well, is there a way to break down the percentages by small/non-small maps?