Middle Earth LADDER [1.0] is submitted for review.

[Jeremy]

New map: Middle Earth LADDER [1.0] by Jeremy.
Map editor link: Middle Earth LADDER [1.0]

[Jeremy]

This is the LADDER map - it\'s a STANDARD map where everyone starts with the same random units.

[Jeremy]

This is the LADDER map - it\'s a STANDARD map where everyone starts with the same random units.

[LPhillips]

Is this FFA enabled? If so, I don't think it can be ladder. Maybe for assigned teams, but as I remember this entire map setup causes some positions to be hopelessly weak compared to others.

[Jeremy]

It is free-for-all enabled. I\'ve seen every position win. What position do you feel is hopeless weak? The Dwarves? They have a slow start, but a great defensive position. The Orcs? It\'s true they have a challenging position, but I\'ve won in a FFA with them twice. Rohan? Rohan has had it\'s defensive position improved so that\'s it\'s not nearly as vulnerable to either Gondor or Saruman.

[Jeremy]

No position on this map is anyway near as weak as the Sirian position on the Illuria map.

[LPhillips]

Well, I'd be happy to play it again. I've enjoyed games on it, and I'm a big fan alternate balancing methods (IE, balance != mirror).

However, you can't maintain that all games and players are equal. There are some people I could beat if you gave me a -5 strength handicap on all units and started me 3 turns away from any cities. Then there are players like Art whom I might not be able to beat at all without a good serving of luck. Circumstances and competition are important for qualifying your statements about balance. I'd be interested to see how a game between top-notch players turns out, and if the results consistently favor one position. Take Four Lords, which looks like a mirror map but wherein one player suffers enough minor disadvantages to consistently prevent victory.

As for the dwarfs, a slow start is an auto-loss. Money and production drive this game, and a player with low expansion prospects suffers a devastating deficit in both. Also, last time I played this, the Dwarf position featured lots of dwarf production and nothing else... which renders their position, far from anything to conquer and with the slowest units in the game, completely disadvantaged. I've played it against good players, and the only things that would have saved it are better production and better income. I out-expanded them even with slow units and 2 idiotically unlucky hero deaths, but my crappy income and their access to temples still made my spot worthless. A defensive position is absolutely garbage if your enemy has more cities, better production, and more cash than you do.

So I can say unequivocally that unless you have done one or more of the following things, the Dwarf position is broken for FFA.
1) Increased the number of cities.
2) Increased the income for the relevant cities, up to as much as 100%
3) Changed production to feature units with more than 8 moves.

Harad was tremendously advantaged at one point; I annihilated all competition in a 3v1 because of its expansion capabilities. Discussion with players worked that out, and I'm sure it can help work out other difficulties. You've done an excellent job developing the map, and I have enjoyed playing it. I'm just against slapping a Ladder label on something that has featured notoriously bad imbalance in every previous iteration.

[Jeremy]

I hear you. The Dwarven position actually used to be more powerful, but I found that made the Orcs totally hopeless in a FFA. I have, however, done a couple of things to improve the Dwarves -- they have a +2 move temple directly on their path out of their home city -- so any units produced there move faster. Also, I put a Level 1 temple directly on their path. After a little more testing, if I find the Orcs besting the Dwarves too often, I will revert the Dwarves back to their previous power level.

[Jeremy]

I hear you. The Dwarven position actually used to be more powerful, but I found that made the Orcs totally hopeless in a FFA. I have, however, done a couple of things to improve the Dwarves -- they have a +2 move temple directly on their path out of their home city -- so any units produced there move faster. Also, I put a Level 1 temple directly on their path. After a little more testing, if I find the Orcs besting the Dwarves too often, I will revert the Dwarves back to their previous power level.

[LPhillips]

Thanks for the consideration.

As for Orcs/Dwarfs, Do you think it is fair to compare them in a vacuum like that? Let's say one bests the other, then what? They end up disadvantaged compared to the rest of the map, don't they? By that time you will definitely see a victor emerging from the wealthy south, and the northern players will still be unable to compete with the stronger southern competitor(s).