Warbarons Combat Calculator

[KGB]

Argammon,

I don't have a calculator anywhere near what Molotov made. Mine is a very simple command line DOS program that simply does combats based on inputting all the values yourself (ie you have to hand work out the strengths of the units by doing all the bonus's/negates etc yourself). I only made it to help Piranha check his code for bugs back in Beta2/3 days.

Incidentally Molotov's calculator is in fact not fair at all. I checked it out and to run it you need to have installed the .NET framework 4.0. I don't have that installed on my machine so I can't use it. What about MAC/Linux users? I've seen screen shots from LPhillips and I know he is using a MAC. They can't use it either. Piranha/SnotlinG want to make a phone/pad version and they can't use it. So the calculator is clearly *not* fair.

Here is another scenario in which hiding all the numbers makes all the difference in the world in terms of game play.

On your turn you see a HorseLord hero approaching in the plains with a full stack. You probe with a crow and see a Horselord, 3 Spiders, 2 Hv Calv and 2 Lt Calv.

Now: You check the numbers. See that no unit is blessed and it's a L1 horselord with +5 bonus. You check your available armies, run the calculator and see that your L3 Valkrie plus a few other nearby units will achieve 90% success so you make a stack and move into position to strike this turn (or next turn).

Hidden Numbers: You have to make a decision. Is this stack blessed? Is this a L1, L3 or L4 Horselord (+5, +15, +25 bonus). Should I attack with a few units and see if I kill some enemy units giving me a rough idea of how strong that stack is? Should I use my L3 Valkrie plus a big stack and risk an attack? Should I hole up in my cities and play defense? So many decisions to make now.

The difference is night and day in terms of level of depth of the game. Hidden Numbers takes the game to a whole deeper level of strategy because you can now bluff or be bluffed since you can't be sure exactly how strong an enemy stack is. Incidentally I'd also like to see cities work like towers in that you can't see how many armies or what armies are in those cities just like you can't see in a tower. This would add another level of depth to the game that DLR had.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Agrammon,

My point is that Piranha and Snotling decided not to release a calculator. Molotov has now done so in the face of that decision. I don't see how that point has any relation to your post, nor really anything except that it was apparently ignored by all parties.

LP

[Molotov]

KGB, i agree there's a problem but you havent convinced me that hidden information would help.
Yes players will make desisions based on experience but they would do it anyway. Only the quality of desicions will range (more random the game - less the role of brains), and time needed to accuire that experience. Random outcomes pisses players off already (how many topics there were on 'unfair' outcomes? you even developed a 90 percent rule thats quite a questional thing). Randomizing the game further will deter many players i believe. On the other hand, there are many board games with NO random and they are still very interesting.

Is the last go problem really so dramatic? We have the same sort of thing in DLR but its ok. Just dont lay yourself open and your rival wont be able to use advantage of customizing a combat order.

Other ideas i've thought out:
- make it unable to observe an enemy's full stack on attack with crow or scout. They could see only first 1-2 units and final bonuses (minus x to us, plus y to them, no detailed listings). stronger units could provide more info. or maybe larger amounts of weak - say stack of 8 crows provides all the detailed infos.
- in addinion to probing action, introduce a new hero ability - reconnaissance. it can work just like that in Heroes of Might and Magic 2 game (dont recall if it was in 3 and above). Higher the level, more detailed info you can get in a popup message on an enemy stack (what units, how many, what bonuses etc), and it should be on a certain distance from a hero having this ability. watching towers could help here too.

ps. deleted the file.

[Chazar]

The effect of the fight order seems overestimated: unless a lot of ambush-capable units and/or anti-air & flyers are involved in a battle, the fight order has no influence on the overall winning percentage.

However, the fight order does influence the likely number of survivors, but this is pretty obvious - place strong units up front to reduce casualties. Now placing strong units up front is certainly not always a good choice, e.g. units providing group bonuses are better saved at the rear; it is better to expend units with applicable terrain bonuses rather than saving them for another fight on another terrain. A combat calculator does not help with these important decisions.

1) Stop showing any numbers in the combat screen
2) Allow for buying units with extra strength and finding units with extra strength in the neutrals.
3) Allow for possibility of medals
4) Vary the dice roll from a fixed 100 to a number between 80-200 picked once at the start of each combat.

1) Terrible idea. The game is difficult enough to learn and understand.
For example: Does a unicorn negate terrain based-moral bonuses? What does negate Aura do if the enemy has both Morale and Fear?
If the mechanics are obscured, no one can learn these, except maybe players that have the time to play the game so often that they have seen enough of these rare battles occur a dozen of times to rule out random flukes. Requiring this kind of grinding before having a chance on the ladder excludes many people from ladder play, leaving only a very small elite to compete with each other.

4) This does not affect battle calculators at all (it only slows down battle simulators a bit, but battle calculators work just as precise - after all, only the variance increases a little bit).

I think the effect of the fight order is overestimated: Unless a lot of ambush-capable units or anti-air & flyers are involved in a battle, the fight order has no influence on the winning percentage. However, the fight order does influence the likely number of survivors, but placing strong units up front is certainly not always a good choice.

[KGB]

Chazar,

1) Stop showing any numbers in the combat screen

1) Terrible idea. The game is difficult enough to learn and understand.
For example: Does a unicorn negate terrain based-moral bonuses? What does negate Aura do if the enemy has both Morale and Fear?
If the mechanics are obscured, no one can learn these, except maybe players that have the time to play the game so often that they have seen enough of these rare battles occur a dozen of times to rule out random flukes. Requiring this kind of grinding before having a chance on the ladder excludes many people from ladder play, leaving only a very small elite to compete with each other.

That's funny because Warlords 2 didn't show any numbers in it's combat screen. As far as I know players didn't have any trouble learning how to play, the game was a best seller and is much beloved. As long as the Warpedia clearly states how all the mechanics work I don't understand how anyone can have a problem learning. Complex examples can written up by players to illustrate things better.

Plus solo player games against the AI can show all the numbers to help players learn what does and doesn't work. That's exactly what the AI is there for.

KGB

[Chazar]

As long as the Warpedia clearly states how all the mechanics work I don't understand how anyone can have a problem learning.

My point was exactly that learning is possible, but it is much more tedious to learn without numbers and the battle log being shown.

Warlords was quite good - at its time. Nowadays I don't play it any more. As warbarons proves, such a game can be made much more comfortable to play.

PS: I don't think I would have bothered learning against the AI - that's no fun. The numbers being shown allowed me to jump right in and learn on the ladder. Why would one want to prevent fresh cannonfodder to learn on the ladder?

[KGB]

Why would one want to prevent fresh cannonfodder to learn on the ladder?

Doesn't hiding the numbers make *more* fresh cannonfodder on the ladder? I don't think hiding the numbers is going to reduce new ladder players. Generally new players just jump into any available game they can find since there aren't that many in the lobby to chose from if they are looking for 1v1 (at the moment there are 15 non password games, 13 of which are ladder, only 1 is a non-ladder 1v1 game).

KGB