MidgardMap-LadderMap?

[Tim]

Hey Guys,
I create the MidgardMap. Hope some people like it so far.
But I want the map to be a Ladder Map. What do you think is to do in this map to become a Ladder Map?

[LPhillips]

I have had 3 bad experiences on that map, which convinced me that the spawns were extremely unfair. I'd be happy to play a couple of private games with a few players to try to see if there is still imbalance there.

[Tim]

That would be great! Thanks! What do you mean with spawn? The random city Production and gold? Now i set a couple of citys around the capital with a more pre defined production. Hope its better...

[LPhillips]

It was more a case of geography. That sort of problem can often be balanced with specific spawn and income changes, or with the addition of a few roads. I think it would be good to have input from some players with more extensive experience on the map. If you want to run a test game, just host it and send me the info.

[KGB]

I think I've played 7 or 8 games on this map now from the initial one to the latest one. 3 of them have been 8 player FFA's and the rest were 4 player FFA's. However I've only started in Orange, Cyan and Blue.

The 8 player FFA's seem to me to be decided as often by who quits/resigns as what starting spot you get (which is true of almost all 8 player FFA's). In other words if a nearby neighbor quits playing (times out) the benefits are huge regardless of how good/bad you think your initial starting spot is because it doubles your expansion area. Or if your neighbor happens to be a weak player as opposed to a strong one.

The 4 player FFA's have been more interesting at least when you get some decent starting spots (Black-Cyan- Green- Red/Orange or Cyan-Yellow-Red-White) allowing all players time to acquire a lot of cities and build up. other times the 4 player starting spots aren't so great (Cyan-Blue-Black-Orange). It would help more if the start spots for 4 player FFA's were set rather than randomized to ensure player start nicely apart.

The new changes adding lots of triggers for gold, items are nice and having certain cities produce the right kinds of units (like Dwarves near the Green start spot) I think have helped as well but then again I haven't started in all spots yet.

Ultimately though I am not sure this makes a good 8 player ladder map. But a 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3 or a 3 player FFA or 4 player FFA I think it makes a ladder map for those who like to play non-mirrored games.

KGB

[LPhillips]

So in short, if the spawns are set and the number of players for ladder FFA is limited to 4, it is a good ladder map?

What spawns do you suggest for the 4 players? What team setups? Proper pairing for the 2v2 etc. is important.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Yes, I think for games up to 4 players it works fine as a ladder map.

As for setups... Some players like to start as far apart as possible to allow a massive build up before battling in the middle of the map. Nothing wrong with that. But it's nice to have maps that start you a bit closer so that you have to defend early, leave the rush option available but still allow plenty of expansion in directions away from anyone. This map seems to fit the latter category well since the middle is basically a large ocean. So my suggestion is based on that idea so if you disagree you might think other starts are better:

4 player FFA: Cyan, Yellow, White, Red
2v2 Team: Cyan/White vs Yellow/Red
3 player FFA: Black, Orange, Cyan (though I am not sure how this will work out as Orange, Cyan may not fight much)
1v1: Black vs Green

KGB

[LPhillips]

KGB, Tim,
It would be good to avoid yellow with FFA setups. I find that position is too easy to expand from, and even more so with a sandworm (I controlled 30% of the map by turn 15 in the 8-player scenario version). Also, I'm worried red would be smothered by white. Does anyone have first-hand experience with that? Cyan a good pick, because he has a slower start than blue and won't grab a whole continent in 15 turns. So while I value some of the same things in my maps (such as the opportunity for early conflict), I think maybe it ought to be green/white/black cyan. I haven't played red, but the red player hasn't dominated in any of my games on the map. A player with first-hand experience is more qualified to make the call than I am.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

You know Yellow better than me then since I've never played there. Also the Yellows in my games have tended to die quickly. But that could entirely be due to having newbie/poor players there against experienced ones in nearby positions.

I think 30% of the map in 15 turns is probably not too far from what Cyan will get on that continent given Dwarves perform the same function as Sandworms in the Desert. I know I have expanded like wildfire in the Cyan position using them. As long as you don't get the Sandworm as part of your original 4 units (which I've mentioned before is very unfair on maps like this which is why I suggested not allowing it) it will require at least spending 1000 gold on one which takes some time to acquire if it's not a 1500 gold start.

I also don't know the Red position having never played it. But you get access to the water to allow acquiring the Orange lands which you should beat White to (provided you are smart enough to build sea serpents on turn 2 or 3 to speed your Barbarian around) and the small island with 2 cities/bless site and the ability to harass Yellow or link with him in a team game quickly.


I do see why you like Black/White/Green/Cyan as the 4 choices. Those might easily also work though I worry about Green's expansion potential regardless of whether he gets White/Cyan as a teammate (A team game would be better with Black/Orange vs Cyan/Green if you want far apart starts). I liked the idea of early conflict potential and the bonus of using more than 4 starting spots so that 4 player games used different spots than 2 player games.

So how about (modding the team colors and filling out the others)

4 player FFA: Cyan, Yellow, White, Red
2v2 Team: Cyan/Black vs Orange/Green
3 player FFA: Black, Orange, Cyan (though I am not sure how this will work out as Orange, Cyan may not fight much)
1v1: Black vs Green
3v3 Team: Cyan/Yellow/Black vs Green/White/Red
2v2v2 Team: Blue/Green vs White/Red vs Yellow/Black (hardest one to select starting spots for)

KGB

[Tim]

Hey, first thanks for the feedback!

I still try to get the map better balanced. I think red is a little to weak. But yellow is ok I think. The Sandowrm is good but when I play Black i beat Yellow most times(or all).

I have a problem with the settings. How can i make a 4 player FFA? Where can I say what starting positions are taken in a 4P FFA?
I can only change 2v2 1v1 3v3v3 and so on... in the map settings. Right?

At the moment i take following settings:

2v2 cyan/red black/green
2v2v2v2 Red/Cyan Yellow/Green Blue/orange Black/white

The other things getting deleted with the last mapupdate i see ... i set it new.

Must I make the changes in the StandardMap or Scenario Map? I think only in the standard Version? Scenario Map is the same I think. It is not useful or is it? Maybe i take some changes there with KI in the middle... can you play ScenarioMap as Ladder?
Sorry for the qestions but its a bit confusing...

In the last Version i make the sourrounding Cities near the players with a constant Gold Prod. And every Player has the follwing armies(as Production)

Red Crow/WolfRider/Elemental
White Light Cav/Heavy Cav/Catapult
Yellow Crow/Scorpion/Sandworm
Green Dwarf/Giant/Green Dragon
Orange Crusader/Wizard
Cyan Crow/Dwarf/Giant
Blue Catapult/Heavy Inf/Crusader
Black Dwarf/Spider/Ghost