AMBUSH MAYHEM?

[smursh]

With the new heroes it is not uncommon to have ambush greater than 100%. Maybe instead of a non-lethal roll you get whatever excess ambush as a second ambush or to reduce the opponents ambush.

So if I have an assasin at 80% group, and three ghost stacked with wolves the wolves would be 124%. They would get 1 ambush at 100%, then if they are still around for a second opponent they would get a 24% ambush attack.

Otherwise if you stack a few ghosts with a strong assasin you get no benefit from using medusa or wolves instead of orcs even scouts.

[LPhillips]

We definitely don't need to make Assassins more powerful. They are literally the only worthwhile hero for employing in stack vs stack battles at the moment. In fact, this is the appropriate thread to discuss that.

I think a Warding skill is warranted. In fact, I think it's practically demanded. If Assassins are granted the opportunity to take the offensive, they cannot be defeated. That is simply the status of the game as it stands now. KGB, I know you haven't experienced this yet or you'd have brought it up before. You need to play someone who focuses on Assassin use, such as Solo or Smursh. It's eye-opening.

[KGB]

LpHillips,

I'd prefer not to bring in another skill just to counter Ambush. More skills always favors the defender since they can stack 32 units in a city while the attacker can only bring 8. We are already very close to the point that you need 5-6 units just to cover all the bonus's now (Archon, Devil, Siege, Unicorn, Dragon as a minimum) so I'd prefer you didn't need more unless there is a really good reason for it.

Rather than have a Warding skill it would make much more sense to cap the max Ambush value for a unit to something like 80% (individual + group). That still lets a high level Assassin stack or Ghost stack wreak havoc on a strong enemy stack but doesn't guarantee victory like 100% does.

KGB

P.S. I am playing Smursh in a game where he is using Assassins so I know how it works as I have used the same myself.

[LPhillips]

KGB, what do you think of a cap to the bonus only? Perhaps a +70% bonus cap, so that units who already have Ambush ability can still have a nearly guaranteed ambush? Combined with removal of the hero-stacking ability, this should rein ambush in. Obviously I don't want to break it, but I don't want to see light cavalry slaughtering 75 strength units with impunity either.

LP

[KGB]

LPhillips,

A Group Ambush cap of 70% works for me. It can only be reached with a Hero anyway (8 Ghosts = 64%) or a city full of Ghosts so it's really only limiting very high level Assassin heroes.

That lets Orcs go to 76, WolfRiders go to 85, and Ghosts/Medusa/Assassin heroes to 100.

As you say, that and no more stacking of Hero Group Ambush should keep it in balance while still letting it be useful for stopping super stacks.

KGB

[LPhillips]

I'd love to get some other players' opinions on this, and hear from our admin too. Anyone listening in?

[piranha]

Yes, I've followed the thread and had some discussions with snotling. Haven't started any new games for a while myself, no 1v1s so I haven't seen how its used but we didn't think about that you could have several assassins in the same stack. I think putting a cap for group ambush is a good idea. Perhaps we need to do some rebalance already now? Is it as bad as it was with the demon?

Preventing several assassin heroes to group their ambush would require more code changes than we want to do on the ongoing version. But some balancing could be done,

Suggestion:
Ghost group ambush from 8 to 6
Wolf rider ambush from 20 to 15 (the most popular 2 turn unit to buy now by far)

Perhaps do something with the assassins start group ambush / first levels.

[Versace]

LPhillips,

A Group Ambush cap of 70% works for me. It can only be reached with a Hero anyway (8 Ghosts = 64%) or a city full of Ghosts so it's really only limiting very high level Assassin heroes.

That lets Orcs go to 76, WolfRiders go to 85, and Ghosts/Medusa/Assassin heroes to 100.

As you say, that and no more stacking of Hero Group Ambush should keep it in balance while still letting it be useful for stopping super stacks.

KGB

Something like this seems good to me. And obviously two or more assassins' bonuses should not stack, same as with other heroes

I have not played a game far enough yet to say if the assassin is too good. But I can't imagine it could be anywhere as bad as the demons

[KGB]

Piranha,

I think the primary problem is the Assassin hero (or rather multiple heroes), not Ghosts or Wolfriders. Otherwise they would have been over used in the last Beta and they weren't. So I don't think you need to do anything with those units.

I realize it's a bigger code change to adjust the Assassin hero so they don't stack. But that's really the only thing you can do that's going to fix the problem besides capping the max bonus at 70%.

For now just cap the max bonus at 70 and lets see how much of a difference that makes. That should be a simple change.

If that still doesn't prove sufficient then the next thing to do is reduce the Assassin heroes group ambush. Start him at 10 at 1st level as now but change his upgrade to 8% for 10 points instead of 10%.

KGB

[LPhillips]

For now, I'm forced to use the stacked Assassins to be competitive in 1v1 :/
It's a bit fun though. I'll have +50% group ambush from two units next turn, and we're only on turn 10!

I like KGB's suggestion. At least a cap would be helpful until the code for the heroes can be changed. That would also remove the odd situations when players have all of their units at 100% ambush and trade ambush rolls. With 70% group ambush max, units who actually use Ambush would then serve their purpose. Right now a scout is as good as a wolf rider at higher levels.

I think putting a cap for group ambush is a good idea. Perhaps we need to do some rebalance already now? Is it as bad as it was with the demon?

It is not as bad as the demon in some ways, but it is far worse in others. Demons became the only unit worth building on wealthy maps, as they needed no help whatsoever to be very powerful, and there was no good counter. Assassins are not going to become the only unit anyone builds, but they are extremely overpowered at low-mid levels, especially in early turns. I have seen quite a few 100% ambush stacks by turn 15. This is about the time players first encounter each other on most maps, so you know how incredibly overpowering that is. Once an opponent reaches 70-100% ambush, the only way he can't easily win every battle is if you are defending in a city with more than 8 units. Even if you do manage to defend your front line cities with masses of units, your opponent has total map control.

This is also true on large maps such as Crescendo. It can be defeated with superior unit positioning and surprise tactics like flybys to burn enemy cities from the rear, but that is a matter of beating an unfair advantage by cunning. The game is always in favor of the Assassin user.