What do you do? ... Scenario 1

[Moonknight]

So here's a predicament that I always seem to be in, middle of the game, your high-level paladin just comes across a big stack of gold in a ruin.

Let's say you have 3000 gold, and it's just at that point where the big battles are right around the corner, and you're on a map where income is average. What do you do in these situations assuming that you already have a few heroes in play and do not have any high-level production (1400+)?

The popular choice for the last beta would have been to build Demons in 2 cities, how about now? Obviously, it depends from map to map and what you know your opponent has, but for the most part, do you have a common action that you do in this situation?

1. Do you wait until next turn with hope for a good allied hero offer?
2. Do you invest in a Red Dragon to boost non-hero stacks?
3. Do you invest in a Grand Archon to negate your opponents starting hero?
4. Still go with the 2 Demon city production even in their weakened state?
5. Upgrade a bunch of 1-turn production cities to 2-turn production cities
6. Other...

With the addition of the 3 new heroes, I have a feeling option #1 might become more popular now b/c you can essentially get the allies offered plus another great ally in the barbarian to stack with your current heroes.

I still get drawn to the Red Dragon for some reason and tend to avoid Grand Archon production, wondering if this is a flaw though.

[LPhillips]

I find that my opponents play a big part in this decision. Do they scout? What do they have? At that point in the game, you've got to consider your opponent(s) pretty carefully. At least now it's not a matter of who masses demons first (boring!!)
One viable option is to grab a stack of Griffon production in this version. In the end, the strength of the opponent and the terrain of the map play far too big a part to give a definitive answer.

In team games, I find that Dragon or Archon production is very effective. In your given scenario, most players aren't as wealthy as you are, so your team needs a "super stack" player.

[KGB]

1) No. A hero and some great allies is best gotten early in the game. In the mid/late stages it's much less important for 2 reasons. Reason 1 is that often such heroes appear a LONG way from where they are needed because you have a lot of cites/are spread out compared to when you have 3-4 cities in the early game and the hero arrives pretty much at the front lines. Reason 2 is you can often wait a LONG time to get the allies you want (RD, Grand Archon, Devil otherwise you might as well buy them as production).

2) Possibly. The answer depends on map size/number of cities/armies. The bigger the map/more cities, the better the RD looks. That's because you can buy him in a city behind the lines where you will be sure to keep it for 5 turns to get the RD. Also more armies to boost gives the RD more value especially if you end up producing say 3 of them over 15 turns and can create 3 really good stacks. Of course if you already have Pegasi production or your opponent has Devils then I'd pass on the RD.

3) Unlikely in 0.8. Barbarians and Assassins are popular now. The Grand Archon doesn't help there. So if your opponents are using those then you for sure pass on the Grand Archon. On the other hand if the opponent has a really high level Valk/Horse Lord (more than a +10 bonus) or several opponents have such heroes (in a >2 player game) that you need to counter then yes the Grand Archon is one of the best late game allies.

4) Likely. Again it depends on the map size/number of cities. The bigger/more, the more likely I take the Demons so I have time to reap the reward of producing a bunch of them. Even in 0.8 they are still the best unit in masses. But it takes more investment in time now so you have to be sure it will be worth it. This strategy means you don't need the best end game heroes to win since Demons don't need heroes to be effective. Thus if your best hero is say an Assassin or a Barbarian who isn't doing much for the stack bonus wise the Demons look better and better.

5) Interesting possibility. If you can boost between 3-6 cities with good level 2 units (spiders/minotaurs or terrain specific units like Serpents on a water map, Dwarves on a hilly map etc) you might be able to win the game before it gets to the late stages. If you go this route you need to end the game before it goes late so your goal will be to raze out your opponent rather than capture, hold, capture, hold etc. One Unicorn or Pegasi is a must have with these 2 turn units though so you may need to invest money there if you haven't already.


Incidentally in the mid/late game there is almost NO point in taking a Barbarian hero. By that time there will be plenty of units with 30/3 stats in the game (his starting numbers) so he won't be anything more than a combat unit. I think the Assassin is the hero to take mid/late game for his 10% stack ambush and hope you level him to L2 so he gets 20% at which point he can by himself with a bunch of fodder units hold a point city against almost any attacker unless they have several stacks of 8 to use.

KGB

[smursh]

I agree that the Archon is generally a poor choice unless you are facing the right types of heroes. I'd like to offer a couple other options.

6) Upgrade 2-3 cities to ghost production. They act like a super swarm since you combine their bonus up to eight units. If you later get a hero offer you can use them to help along an assasin until he is strong enough to stand alone.

7) rather than an archon consider a devil. It can effectively counter to any bonus units like the RD, even when the RD is combined with a fear unit such as a yeti or medusa. Given the new heroes this option is most likely better than the G. archon.

[ptGamer]

8) Upgrade your frontier / good production cities to 15 wall
I do this in vs. AI games a lot. Granted this is probably because I am the conservative me, but hey, it is an option. This is likely to create a stalemate situation instead of a prompt finish...

[Moonknight]

In this game, the best defense is a good offense...

[LPhillips]

In this game, the best defense is a good offense...

Yeah, against human players, stockpiled low-level troops are only good for leveling your opponents' heroes.

[KGB]

Correct. It's 100% impossible to defend your way to victory unless your opponent gets frustrated and quits.

At some point you need to go on offense and every bit of gold spend on defense is gold not available for offense.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Correct. It's 100% impossible to defend your way to victory unless your opponent gets frustrated and quits.

Funny, that just happened

Not exactly true. I defended him for aeons while he broke piles and piles of 1-turn units on a few cities, and let his little Barbarian run around burning colonies until a hero+dragons showed up and taught him what a real army looks like. Then, after using offense against him, he quit out of frustration. So frustration quits are possible from a war of attrition, but you still need to use offense to break an opponent's spirit.

[Moonknight]

LP, that's called deception...make your opponent think he's winning wasting his time on pawns and then blindside him with your true force