Minimum move cost for fliers

[ptGamer]

This quote is from another thread in the Bug Report forum:

We are planning to increase flier movecost to minimum 2 in next version. Hopefully this should help out.

Really? This may require some significant balancing on all fliers. Currently I really enjoyed how they can take advantage of road and other lead units (flying through mountains lead by a dwarf, for example) to surprise my enemies. I am concerned that such a change will make them a lot less popular. Imagine a red dragon supporting a stack of ground troops...now your red dragon is as slow as a catapult even along a road!

I also feel constrained when moving fliers and aqua units together, but that is ok, it makes battles on the sea more balanced.

Other thoughts?

[KGB]

Overall this is a positive change. But then again I am the one who originally requested it so my opinion might be slightly biased

Fliers are already the best units in the game in terms of strength and move. In 3/4 of my games I make no ground based units other than 1 turn city defenders. Something had to be done to make 2 and 3 turn ground based units more viable relative to fliers. This change will not only do that but will also reflect reality (how would Dwarves help fliers move further in the hills or how would roads help fliers move further?) as well as how fliers worked in Warlords I.

So if they become less popular that's a good thing because it means more ground based units will be used and therefore there will be more variety in the game.

KGB

[ptGamer]

Interesting thoughts. I supposed it make sense for a crow or an eagle to sit on the should of a dwarf, not so much for a dragon...

That said, the model for all fliers should be consistent to keep the game rules not overly complex. It'd be too complicated to see some fliers can travel faster than other fliers on the road.

If the changes happens, ruin-hunting hero will have to depend more on ground travel. Not necessarily a bad thing.

To be consistent, however, may the change should be move cost 2 for fliers on all terrains (except for lava)?

[smursh]

The main disadvantage to flyers is that some units get a bonus against them, but aside from a few artifacts you are looking at units like elves and scouts which don't stand up to the strong flyers in any case.

Low level flyers like crows are fairly balanced, movement vs being slightly weaker than equivilant priced creatures, but the high level flyers seem to get the best of both worlds-movement and strength. Increasing the cost or turns to produce is probably a better balancing factor. You would then need to decide between smaller numbers of fast monsters or larger numbers of slow monsters.
Consider the eagle vs. elves. Similar strength, similar cost, but you produce two elves vs. one eagle. A fair trade since the eagles have more manuver ability. Now compare the red dragon vs. the devil. Similar strength, similar bonus value, but the dragon has far better manuver with the same 5 turn production time for only a little more cost.

[LPhillips]

I think this will be a good balance fix. Any negative effects from this approach can be corrected by awarding the fliers with more base movement points (so a griffon might need to move at 18 or somesuch). It also means that roads will have a very different effect on the game: Maps with lots of roads will lend great strength to the use of ground units, instead of roads being an impartial travel facilitator.

I was originally against this idea, but that was two versions ago. Many things have changed, and so has my opinion.

[Moonknight]

Agree with the change on roads, but I'm not sure about terrain bonuses of 1 (Sandworm and Dwarf) not impacting fliers.

As odd as it seems a dragon getting the Dwarf's movement bonus in the hills, it also seems weird that a Mammoth would get the Dwarf's movement bonus, so I'd be in favor of flyer units still benefitting in these cases.

[KGB]

As odd as it seems a dragon getting the Dwarf's movement bonus in the hills, it also seems weird that a Mammoth would get the Dwarf's movement bonus, so I'd be in favor of flyer units still benefitting in these cases.

What's odd about a Mammoth getting the Dwarf's movement bonus?

Presumably the logic behind Elves leading in woods, Orcs in swamps, Dwarves in hills etc is that these creatures are able to find / create paths that normal units can't. This allows for easier movement over the terrain and thus a unit can move further per turn than it otherwise could on it's own. However flying units don't use land based paths, they simply just fly and so there is nothing they can gain from the native units specialized knowledge.

I think many players confuse movement with distance rather than realize that movement is time based with your move points representing slices of that time (Dwarf gets 8 slices, Elf gets 15 slices etc). Once you realize this, all the terrain based movement makes sense since it requires 6 slices of time to move in hills (a long time to move 1 square), 4 in forest, 1 on road, 2 in open etc. For fliers it always requires the same amount of time to fly over a fairly flat (hills, woods, swamp, water, open etc) terrain while mountains requires more time due to the need to fly up/down in addition to forward.

KGB

[Moonknight]

Well, a flying unit could get lost in the hills or the desert though because everything looks the same around you, so having a leader could help the flyer take a direct path as well.

I don't see why flyers would not receive a bonus if land units get a bonus, besides, all the flyers either have large enough legs to walk behind pathfinders or small enough to either ride on their shoulder

You have not convinced me yet...

[smursh]

I agree, there is no reason not to give flyers the advantage of other units pathfinding and even roads. You could just as easily say calvalry shouldn't get road advantage since they already get higher speed. My point is that if a unit is specialised for fast movement don't penalise them by taking that away.

[KGB]

I don't see why flyers would not receive a bonus if land units get a bonus, besides, all the flyers either have large enough legs to walk behind pathfinders or small enough to either ride on their shoulder

You have not convinced me yet...

I can convince you easily. Just take a look outside your window and tell me how many birds/bees/insects etc you see walking from point A to point B along our very nice modern roads vs how many you see flying from point A to point B. No one who flies walks. It's too slow

Ironically the only place fliers should get a bonus is the one place they currently don't. That would be on ships where they can relax on the boat and let the ship do the work just as land based units do.

KGB

P.S. Not sure which fliers you think can ride on anyone's shoulder. The Eagles in Warbarons are Giant Eagles like the ones that Gandalf rode in LOTR. Otherwise they wouldn't be threats to Dragons and heroes could not be riding them. Even the Crows are Giant Crows that I'd guess would be Pterodactyl sized.