Dem Assassins

[LPhillips]

So, this post is prompted by a recent experience in a game, as usual.

Why is it that we have a hero whose main ability stacks? Does this bother anyone other than me? If not, then I'll concede the point. I know the decision has been handed down already, but I am still unconvinced. For me, equaling one well leveled hero with three fresh or slightly leveled heroes is a bust. It's an imbalance, a major problem, a design flaw in short. If we could band three paladin to get a +12 instead of leveling one properly to +10, wouldn't everyone be up in arms?

I used a +32 Assassin (that's level 4, folks, close to 4000xp) with a ghost and supporting troops. Very strong composition, good defensive position, should have been difficult to break considering we were on turn 8. However, by virtue of getting hero offers in the right places, my opponent brought 3 Assassins to the table, equivalent to a level 5. Granted, the highest was level 2, but that didn't matter one bit. He was able to employ a level 5 hero without the proper leveling.

So I put the question to the community again. Does this seem like a problem to anyone else? Remember, this is turn 8 of the game and a player's level 2 heroes are boosted to a level 5 by virtue of stacking. Don't talk about ghosts, ally offers, or other irrelevant topics. We are on turn 8, and this is about employing a level 5 hero when in fact you only have a level 2. The fact that you can create a similar effect with ghosts by purchasing production and waiting until turn 15 or so is completely irrelevant. This is turn 8. Also, this is the Assassin, whose ability is the most powerful in a single stack. Far more powerful than any combination of two different heroes (who also have no increased abilities at level 2).

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Technically you *can* band together other L1 heroes and have them stack:

Paladin/HL/Valkrie + DK will give you potentially a +7 to +9 bonus difference. The Assassin obviously stacks with any of those other 3 heroes plus the Barbarian. This is why so many players field the dual hero combo that you once mocked.

For what it's worth, if your opponent had instead taken Valk/DK/L2 Assassin their chances of winning would actually be better! Here's what I mean. Assume 8 25 strength units on both sides.

Battle1: L2 Ass/Ass/Ass. This is 8 25 vs 25 strength units with 32% assassin chance. This combo wins 82% of the time.
Battle 1: L2 Ass/DK/Valk. This is 8 31 vs 22 strength units with 16% assassin chance. This combo wins 95% of the time.

Now I realize you probably didn't have 8 25's on each side and I didn't account for your counter assassin power. I just used this to illustrate that stacking Valk/DK/L2 Assassin is basically every bit as good as if not better than 3 Assassins.

KGB

P.S. Returning to the turn 8 thing. Can I guess you are playing on a small (50x map)? If so this is one of the drawbacks to small maps. Getting a bunch of early hero offers especially if they come with allies matters about 10x as much as it does on a medium/large map.

[LPhillips]

Let's stick to the point: You can use multiple heroes of the same type to simulate a highly leveled hero. This breaks the XP curve and invalidates leveling of heroes if there is early game combat. Let's disregard map size and consider travel time, which is actually the only relevant figure. The Vale isn't 50x50, but it plays quickly. Compare Battlefield, where an opponent can still make contact by turn 10. Utilizing the Assassin stack principle, he can defeat anything except another Assassin stack.

As for stacking other heroes, comments from previous versions are irrelevant. I'm sure you remember that pre-launch I stated that we will see hero stacking consistently with the introduction of these "support heroes".

Again, let's stick to the point. I don't believe detailed scenarios are the proper way to examine this. The point is avoiding the XP curve to produce leveled heroes without proper time investment, and please address only this point. It is absolutely counter-productive to discuss the Assassin, or the Assassin stack, as it relates to other heroes and hero combinations. That is a rabbit hole and we'll stay well the hell away from it this time if you please. Nerfing the Assassin to account for stacking produces a hero who can only be properly utilized in a stack; it's ass-backwards and comes from looking at the problem backwards.

Level 2 xp: 1000
Level 3 XP: 2000
Level 4 XP: 3000
Level 5 XP: 4500
Level 6 XP: 6000

Let's start with these numbers. There is a reason for this XP curve. If there is not, and Assassins are going to be demi-heroes balanced for stacking instead of individual operation, then their XP curve must be flattened to 1000 per level.

Now, on topic, let's discuss this.
LP

[KGB]

LP,

I'm not sure where this discussion is going to go. It's already been stated that to avoid confusion that SnotlinG/Piranha don't want to treat group ambush on an Assassin different than they do on a Ghost.

Their argument makes a lot of sense. So the question just becomes one of balancing the Assassin. The current change from 10% to 8%, the reduced UL and the max cap on the Assassin hero of 72% all seem to be very good changes that for me at least have reduced the attractiveness of the Assassin.

To me your argument is 'fielding multiple low level heroes that are the equivalent of 1 higher level hero'. I personally make NO distinction between whether it's 3 heroes of the same type or 3 different heroes. You on the other hand make a distinction between those cases.

Ultimately to me the real question is, is the game broken by multiple heroes being the equivalent of 1 higher level one. If it's not broken then I am not sure anything needs to get fixed. Right now it seems there are multiple paths you can take in the early turns:

A) 1 high level hero + good early production but fewer units
B) Multiple low level ones stacked together with poor early production but gobs of units
C) A couple of heroes (stacked or separate) along with OK early production and an average number of units

Different paths lead to different strategies and tend to produce the Iron Golem - Rust Monster - Mind Flayer (Rock/Paper/Scissors for the mundane crowd) effect. You brought the Iron Golem expecting to meet a Mind Flayer but unfortunately found a Rust Monster behind Door #2.

While I have seen players stack assassins I have yet to have any trouble with it in any game. But then I am not playing option A, I tend to play option C.

KGB

[kenc80]

LP - I'm going to go with KGB on this one. It looks like you got a bad beat, as they say in poker, your opponent flopped aces when that was about his only chance of beating you. He got lucky on the hero position and timeliness of the offer. I would say that the hero offer had much more to do with your "bad beat" than the stacked Assassins.

What you are implying is major changes to the hero system and I think the nerfed assassin has been good for balance. I am back to the paladin again and Ive seen more DK's lately than I had when we were all rolling with the assassins.

My condolonces on you bad loss!


Ken

[Chazar]

Let's stick to the point: You can use multiple heroes of the same type to simulate a highly leveled hero.

This is incorrect: it only works for one hero type, namely the assassin. Yes, it breaks the symmetry between hero types. However, breaking symmetry is good: it makes the game more interesting, by offering really differing choices for the player (Paladins don't stack, Assassins do stack). Great!

So we stuck to your point, and we saw that assassins can substitute levelling by using a lot of gold and forfeiting valuable stack slots (note that Ambush units benefit the most from weak chaff). However, such a choice is only acceptable if it is not substantially more powerful than other strategies which have a similar cost. So how do you get a stack of assassins and what did you sacrifice for it? Here we have to include the context: Hero types are not random, and a player chooses the type. So a player fielding 4 Assassins forfeited a stack of Valkyrie+DreadKnight+Assassin+Barbarian. They come at the same price and thus we can and must compare them when we decide if the assassin is broken. As KGB already pointed out, such a combo is even more powerful than assassins. So either Valkyrie+DreadKnight+Assassin+Barbarian is broken too, or stacking Assassins is ok.

(Of course, one might argue that having one and the same ability working differently for different units also offers variety (such as GroupAmbush not stacking for Assassins but stacking for Ghosts), but this would be terribly confusing for player, making the game experience frustrating! Hence the Assassin would need a different Ability - just like units have Morale instead of Leadership. However, it would come at a high cost and all it would do would eliminate the little variety the stacking assassin offers right now. Bad idea. So unless Assassin stacks are more powerful than other Hero stacks, everything is just fine!)

[smursh]

Although the assasins do stack their main ability, I generally find you will be better off in the long run by using heroes with different skills to stack. In the long run there is a maximum level for ambush, so eventually your multi-assasin combo will need to be broken up. An assasin/paladin/barbarian can stay together and become extemely powerful. Then you can pick off his assasins one at a time once they are too strong to provide support to each other.

Also remember that when you stack heroes you split experience points. Your opponent might have had a level 4 assasin if he didn't keep stacking them together.

[Argammon]

I was the other player in that game. A few comments:

1) It has been mentioned before: You totally disregarded that 3 assassins are a lot more expensive than a single one. Also, I bought even more than 3 to have a better chance of pooling them. I did not buy good production and therefore had plenty of gold to get these offers.

2) Whereas the valk,dreadknight,assasin vs ass,ass,ass example is a good one, you forgot that the valk is useless on defense. Still, we got the point.

3) I don't think "your opponent flopped aces when that was about his only chance of beating you" is true but understand that this is not the point of this thread. I expanded more quickly and reached the strategically important center of the map faster even though I was the second player to move.

GG though.

[LPhillips]

Heh, I was watching you. I just waited to bring more than a couple of units, so it's not quite true that you got there first

But anyway, my point is the XP curve. What's the point of the XP curve if you can defeat it by massing heroes?

[Argammon]

As mentioned, massing heroes is a lot more expensive money vise.

So it basically is Money vs XP. The opportunity cost associated with buying all these heroes is quite high.