Dem Assassins

[LPhillips]

Balancing the Assassin for stacking means that he can only find proportionate strength in stacking. This is fine with everyone? I liked him as a real hero, not some support wuss.

Every other hero ability has a non-hero analogue, and common hero types do not stack. Why does the Assassin not have an Ambush ability called by a different name (just like all other main hero abilities) and stacking only with non-hero units? Assassination, stacks with Ambush but not Assassination? That seems like a bad name to me, but we can certainly do better.

I get it, Ambush is the only stacking ability in the game. It might be confusing if Ambush did not stack for heroes. Obviously, it's quite confusing that most main hero abilities don't stack and one does. I've played as much Warlords/DLR/Warbarons as most anyone here, and I'm quite confused by that inconsistency. So the "players might be confused by this ability behaving just like every other hero ability" argument seems very shaky to me.

Ideally, I guess we wait to see what comes forward in the new hero system. In the meantime I think it's important to keep these issues alive and in consideration for the next version. The wild inconsistencies between this hero and other heroes are problematic to my mind. If the stacking argument is valid, why Assassins and not Paladins, Dread Knights, etc.? Is this one hero to be balanced for stacking and useful only as support? A level 5 Assassin is kind of a piece of **** on his own, compared to a level 5 Paly or DK. Not the case a little while ago.

[Versace]

I get it, Ambush is the only stacking ability in the game. It might be confusing if Ambush did not stack for heroes. Obviously, it's quite confusing that most main hero abilities don't stack and one does. I've played as much Warlords/DLR/Warbarons as most anyone here, and I'm quite confused by that inconsistency. So the "players might be confused by this ability behaving just like every other hero ability" argument seems very shaky to me.

I agree with this, I never thought that the assassins' ambushes would stack, even though ghosts stack. But I can see how someone else could think they would too, I quess.

I would prefer them not stacking but I am not too worried about facing opponents who stack their heroes. Another hero taking a slot, sharing experience, costing money to buy.. it all seems like a big waste to me and I would not generally do that myself. So, it seems to me like an inferior tactic so it does not bother that much.

[KGB]

A level 5 Assassin is kind of a piece of **** on his own, compared to a level 5 Paly or DK. Not the case a little while ago.

Not quite. A L5 Assassin is now actually very well balanced compared to a L5 Paly/DK. Let's look at a couple of sample battles between them. A L5 Assassin has 40% Ambush while the Paly is +10 and the DK is -9. We'll use a base 25 strength unit for each side:

1) 8 25's with 40% ambush vs 8 35's: Assassin beats Paly 55% of the time.
2) 8 16's with 40% ambush vs 8 25's: DK beats Assassin 51% of the time.

These are basically 3 equal heroes at L5 with 25 strength units. Now if the average strength of the units is lower (say 15) then the Paly/DK start winning more because then they become better in straight up combat (25 vs 15 is much better than 35 vs 25). On the other hand if the average strength of the units is high (say 35) then the Assassin wins more because the straight up combat is closer.

Also remember that the Paly/DK can have all their skill countered with an Archon while the Assassin can only be countered with Ambush from another hero/Ghosts.


Back to the stacking/non-stacking thing. I don't think the rule was ever that 'hero powers don't stack' . The rule was simply that 'combat stack bonuses (leader/chaos/morale/fear/siege/fortify) don't stack'. Ambush / group ambush is not one of those type of bonus's which is why it does stack. So the real question becomes can heroes get powers other than 'combat stack bonuses'? If the answer is yes, then some of those powers are going to be stackable among heroes like group ambush. If the answer is no, then heroes are going to be pretty boring being limited to only a few powers.

KGB

[Chazar]

I don't think the rule was ever that 'hero powers don't stack' . The rule was simply that 'combat stack bonuses (leader/chaos/morale/fear/siege/fortify) don't stack'. Ambush / group ambush is not one of those type of bonus's which is why it does stack. So the real question becomes can heroes get powers other than 'combat stack bonuses'?

Seconded. The current system is not confusing at all: bonuses to unit strength never stack for each bonus type, only across the different types of strength bonuses. Ambush is not a bonus to strength, but something unlike everything else, so it is perfect to have its own rules, and it makes the game much richer.

[smursh]

Stacking of group ambush is something that is just part of the game. Consider this- my red dragons don't stack either. Nobody seems to feel my pain when my eight red dragons get killed by eight ghosts. Why should heroes work any different?(just kidding, I would never stack eight red dragons)

[LPhillips]

Considering the arguments presented, I can concede that it's a matter of personal preference and game direction as chosen by the dev team, and not a balance problem. So then, on to the other trouble with Assassins which is much more concrete and not merely a matter of hero balance.

Group Ambush can match or exceed 100%. Now, some people may not have a problem with it. However, I have a major problem with it, even when I employ it myself. Indestructible offensive stacks are unacceptable to me, and so is the ability to turn any unit into a sure killer on defense or offense. We have limits to other major bonuses (+30 strength, -25 strength). Wasn't there talk and confirmation of a 70% group ambush cap? Then units with natural ambush ability gain their proper viability in high level ambush stacks, and we no longer have this problem of complete inability to ever engage a well leveled and supported Assassin stack in a city offensively or in the open defensively.

72% personal natural bonus cap to the Assassin hero does not solve this problem. It just introduces a mild difficulty to accumulating 100% or near-100% bonus. I'm experiencing both sides of this coin at the moment.

1) I have two of the modern Assassin heroes which cannot be defeated in cities while on defense (100% ambush) and can intercept absolutely any enemy stack with complete dominance. Now in that game, I'd win with any hero combo, but I'm not at all pleased by the ability to create a irresistible stack. It's just griefing in this circumstance.
2) Defensively, I'm facing it in a game on Crescendo. Now that map is not normally prone to stalemates in top vs bottom conflicts. One side by superior production choices, unit deployment, and strategy will steamroll the other. However, we have completely indestructible fortifications on one side (cities full of units with 100% ambush bonus, which cannot be assaulted directly and cannot be circumvented because an intercepting force is 100% deadly against all stacks), and superior production and deployment on the other. Any offensive attempt by the Assassin side will likewise result in abysmal failure at the moment (at least on my side of the defense), because their indestructible heroes are the only thing keeping the balance for them.

A bonus which generates absolute victory and has no counter is not a good feature. Is there still a cap coming? does it need to wait until 0.9? Don't forget: I am not eliminating the possibility for 100% and near-100% stacks, just suggesting that it be required that the units actually have some ability of their own. No more crows annihilating highly supported green dragons and such with absolute impunity.

[KGB]

72% personal natural bonus cap to the Assassin hero does not solve this problem. It just introduces a mild difficulty to accumulating 100% or near-100% bonus. I'm experiencing both sides of this coin at the moment.

Correct. I too would like to see the Group Ambush value cap out at something like 70 (ideal) or 75% so that Orcs/Wolfriders/Ghosts/Medusa would be the only units that can exceed that.

I suspect this won't happen until 0.9 since it would have been easy to do already and yet it wasn't done. Probably just to allow Beta 0.8 to continue with no cap and see how much it was needed.

2) Defensively, I'm facing it in a game on Crescendo. Now that map is not normally prone to stalemates in top vs bottom conflicts. One side by superior production choices, unit deployment, and strategy will steamroll the other. However, we have completely indestructible fortifications on one side (cities full of units with 100% ambush bonus, which cannot be assaulted directly and cannot be circumvented because an intercepting force is 100% deadly against all stacks), and superior production and deployment on the other. Any offensive attempt by the Assassin side will likewise result in abysmal failure at the moment (at least on my side of the defense), because their indestructible heroes are the only thing keeping the balance for them.

How many of these 100% assassin stacks does he have? If it's only 2, then it should be possible to bypass him by flying 3 stacks on the Cresendo mountains. He can only intercept and kill 2 while the other gets past.

I often have to do this type of thing to bypass an enemy strong point. I simply send 2 stacks far enough apart that he can pick one to kill while the other slips past. It takes time to assemble but since you are in a stalemate you should have plenty of time to hit 'end turn' until you have what you need to send more past than he can stop.

KGB

[LPhillips]

All stalemates break. I'm good in the long game, and it may very well break in our favor. Without this abusive ability (exercised extensively to go from 40% to around 55% map control when front line unit numbers were low), we'd have steamrolled them in no time. However, indestructible offensive stacks have map control, and we're not going to overcome that very easily. It's important to remember that a simple stack of ghosts can fly anywhere and do this kind of damage. This is almost a given on a big map where the players can mass ghosts and better/alternate production types are completely ineffective.

I theorized this back in Beta3. Now that we have heroes that exercise and benefit from Ambush stacking abilities, it's a very real problem instead of a cost-ineffective way to abuse the system.

[KGB]

If the stalemate eventually breaks then there is nothing to worry about.

The question I keep coming back to on this issue is that group ambush is *the only* thing that keeps a player with fewer cities in a game. So if you completely nerf it so that it can't keep a weaker player in the game then what is Warbarons reduced to? And the answer I continually come back to is 'a city race'. As in if you end up with a small advantage (say 25 to 20) cities you always win because in time those 5 cities overwhelm the other player (steamrollering them as you put it). If you end up with a bigger advantage than 5-4 (25/20) it's even worse. There literally are NO comeback games for the player(s) who loses the initial race because there is no mechanism for them to come back (As my teammates will attest, once we reach 60% city control I always makes the announcement of 'Let Operation Mop Up Commence').

DLR overcame this city race issue by allowing heroes to continually gather experience + gold/items/armies etc via quests. So that a player with great heroes could hold off and beat a player who outnumbered him maybe 4 or 5 to 1 in cities if they played it right. Warbarons only equivalent is group ambush which allows the weaker player to hold off and potentially stop the stronger player if they play it right and they aren't outnumbered too badly (about 3/2 is the worse you can stay alive).

Ideally in the next version quests which reward heroes with gold, allies, items will help with this problem. I also suggested the ability to purchase new production with extra strength for more gold. This helps the player who accumulates a lot of early gold but loses the city race and gets strangled because he can't turn his gold into any more useful production.

KGB

[smursh]

The 100% ambush is not a 100% defense. Remember that each unit only gets one ambush shot. Using combinations of low units to soak ambush attacks stacked with 2-3 strong unis to eliminate enemies. It might require a long build up to get enough stacks together, but once you do launch wave attacks. Full ghost stacks also work well. Once you eliminate enough defenders your hero stack can finish off the rest. Even though you may need as many as twice the number of units as your opponent, remember you only need to break through at one point so concentrate on just one of his super forts. Once through you can spread out and attack the more vulnerable cities behind the front. This should be possible if you really have production value that is much better than your opponent.