Dem Assassins

[smursh]

Returning the dragon to + 12 and upgrading the demons does nothing to deal with the extreme ambush stacks. It gives too much value to city defenses stacked with large numbers of units. Development of overpowering units was always the name of the game.

What I would like to see is reducing the ambush attack to 1 hit, then allowing the unit to get a new ambush attack with each new creature he fights. That way if the enemy has a massive force of scouts with a couple assasins giving 100% ambush, you just need to add your own assasin with 72% ambush. Now your hero/devil/dragon/demon stack can destroy the massive low quality force. It would also encourage players using assasins to invest in better units since they will possibly get multiple ambush attacks.

[LPhillips]

The dragon comment isn't related to balancing Ambush. It's an off-topic response to KGB's lamentation that units are becoming too neutral and the game becomes a simple city race without extreme units and bonuses. A comment related to both would be that Assassins with high ability (stacking up to 100%) make the game a pure city race because they can enforce the status quo and do little else once lines are drawn.

What I would like to see is reducing the ambush attack to 1 hit, then allowing the unit to get a new ambush attack with each new creature he fights

That defeats the purpose of Ambush. I'm good with Ambush being restricted (say 3 hits) so that it doesn't eliminate 4-7 hit units (Mammoths, leveled Barbarians with/without Gabriel's Heart). However, reducing the enemy's HP by 1 for each unit that fights is not really related to the current Ambush ability. It's completely different on a fundamental level by because of units with more than 2 HP.

[KGB]

Not only does it defeat the purpose but actually it doesn't help matters much. Think about the city of bats with 100% ambush and an attacking hero stack with Spiders. First bat does 1 hit, gets killed. Second bat does 1 hit (killing 1 spider), does 1 hit on spider#2 and dies. Third bat kills spider #2, then does 1 hit on spider3 then gets killed. So you kill 1 bat for 1 spider just as you do now. It only makes a difference with 3 hit units since those take 2 bats before the 3rd one kills them. Leaving Ambush as it is now and just capping at 70% will have a better effect because Green Dragons with 100% ambush would do a hell of a lot instant 1 damage to units making them almost invincible and far more powerful than any stack combo now.

I also disagree with the idea that developing overpowering units is the name of the game. Developing great stacks is key but it isn't the only thing or shouldn't be the only thing. Otherwise the game is a race for the best stack. The ambush skill is the insurance policy to prevent someone's super stack from roaming around by itself and destroying everything it comes in contact with. So what is does is force players to be a bit more cautious and scout and bring other stacks to make sure they don't get killed by ambush.

I think a 70% cap on Group Ambush will probably make a big difference. Ambush will still be very useful for dealing with super stacks and holding cities on defense. But it won't be perfect and there will no longer be 100% victories unless the stack with 70% ambush is also loaded with strong fighting units.

LPhillips I hope the Assassin can't enforce status quo, at least once things get capped at 70%. As far as I can tell they can't enforce it on larger maps (100x and larger) because there is too much map to cover and heroes don't move far. On smaller maps with lots of choke points I can see how it can happen. This is one of the drawbacks of having chokepoints on maps. They can sometimes turn the game into Trench Warfare. As long as it doesn't *always* turn into that it's not a problem (ie if 1 in 4 times on Crescedo you have a trench warfare situation I don't consider that to be a problem but if it's 4 in 5 times then its either a map issue or a problem with that skill).

KGB

P.S. KenC, I love that you continue to champion for Big Red. Perhaps your hard work will pay off once the next version comes out and flier movement is adjusted.

[LPhillips]

Assassins have high mobility, which I love. They're interceptors. The only trouble is the complete dominance of Ambush in stack battles or on defense. Once we see the 100% disappear I anticipate no problems. No one is going to bring a stack of weaklings+Assassin against a real, powerful stack anymore.

[kenc80]

P.S. KenC, I love that you continue to champion for Big Red. Perhaps your hard work will pay off once the next version comes out and flier movement is adjusted.

We can only hope. Incidentally, I do think giving Big Red his extra +2 is a good thing and helps this discussion because someone ought to be at the top of the food chain and it shouldnt be an Assassin. Plus the Hobbit is coming out this winter and we ought to pay some homage to the big guy with his big screen debut around the corner!

Lets not go too far the other way though...I think the 70 cap is a good compromise that leaves the Assassin hero VERY valuable and fulfills his original objective of a counter to super-stacks. I'm ok with the +3HP limit too. I think that makes good sense.

Good topic here.

[Zaque]

Instead of limiting the assassins abilities why not add new abilities to heroes and various underused units that lowers the chance for the stack to enter into an ambush? I'm not sure exactly how to make the system work well because I'm not experienced enough with all the various units but I'm sure something could be done and I worry that nerfing the assassin too much will make it a useless hero.

[Chazar]

Instead of limiting the assassins abilities why not add new abilities to heroes and various underused units that lowers the chance for the stack to enter into an ambush? I'm not sure exactly how to make the system work well because I'm not experienced enough with all the various units but I'm sure something could be done and I worry that nerfing the assassin too much will make it a useless hero.

Warlords had a warding skill, that helped to protect units against ambush. Someone has already mentioned this, and it has been dismissed by some as to complicated.

I tend to agree to NOT introduce warding: the skill is very situational and adds little. Also, ambush was meant to counter otherwise invincible stacks. If such stacks could acquire warding to become truly invincible, then all high-end stacks would look the same again. Boring.

I think there is already a good protection against ambush: masses of 1T units paired with a single bonus provider. Maybe there should also be a 1HP 1T unit with a higher strength, say 18-20, which would be an excellent throw-away ambush counter - if the unit is balanced against its meager single hitpoint, then it is good against ambush units, since ambush excels against high-hitpoint units.

[hatchfactory]

Chalk my vote on the side for a warding skill.
It could be introduced in varied amounts (Unit, Hero, or Item) but the max shouldn't be greater then the max possible ambush percentage (maybe 60% of max) so it doesn't guarantee a complete cancellation. (therefor no complete invincibility) Or have Ambush cancel out opposing ambush leaving the outcome based on the remainder and army strength rather than who rolls first.

I like the new heroes very much, and the ambush strategies provided by the Assassin add to the Warbarons experience.

To me, Warbarons holds the niche of the new chess by mail, out think your living breathing opponent, strategy game. I believe though that the current imbalance of ambush possibilities has dumbed things down a bit making it a numbers game. I very much prefer the old intelligent game-play of out stacking your opponent, the battles of the bonuses. A player who has invested the time and money into building their super-stack while sacrificing a little expansion speed should be able to reap their benefits (yes the forgotten Dread Knight, red dragon and the obsolete Archon belong in the conversation). I do believe there is a place in the Warbarons world for the Assassin nerfed or non but their should be a partial counter possibility for every bonus.

Also remember building your insurance is one thing, getting to the right place at the right time is much more difficult.

[LPhillips]

Also remember building your insurance is one thing, getting to the right place at the right time is much more difficult.

That's the trouble, Hatch. No one wants one more skill to keep track of, and a relatively useless one at that. This shouldn't become a game of "guess what I'm building or lose". So some of us are against adding just one more stack bonus/skill/etc to counter something that isn't really meant to be countered, as it's supposed to be a superstack killer. The trouble is that right now ambush doesn't just provide a counter to super stacks; it IS the only real super stack. Reducing its maximum effectiveness should put it back into the realm of what is reasonable. Right now it is like allowing Dreadknights to level up to -50 chaos with support by level 10, except it's even more situationally powerful such that it really defies comparison.

[smursh]

You know that non-assasin heroes still can get a group ambush. Put a dreadnight, paladin, barbarian stack together with a single ghost and you could get a 38% group ambush. If that is combined with a cap of 70% your super stack could counter the assasin nicely. Of course you mayl have neglected your other skills to get this, but the possibility is there. No real need for an anti-ambush skill.