Ideas for units

[ams16]

I personally would love to see the Archon be a completely different unit:
1HP. 5 Strength. Flying (can fly heroes). Morale +15. Negate fear/chaos 5.

This is what having an angel on your side is all about. It can't fight, but the gods are with you. I think it would be an interesting unit strategically. (Note that it is a 20 flying unit on its own, though with one hit point, I don't think you'd want it in a fight.)

[LPhillips]

All-purpose units aren't much good in the current game structure. Something that gives +15 and -5 is like having 3 good support units. It would be the only unit used as support in wealthy games, even if it cost 3200, and the first player to get one in action would win the game. Implementing an all-purpose unit would have to look more like +6 -3, and then it is unlikely to be used when the alternate +10/+12 can be used and stacked with a -5. Focused units are the key. Something that does a job and does it well as a support unit.

Thematically, an all-powerful grand archon is a pretty darn good idea. It would just need to be applied a bit more effectively to the game structure, and that proposal needs to involve significant alteration to other units.

[Chazar]

While the current units are pretty fine the way they are from the game mechanics perspective, I also agree that their bonuses are not all thematic. This struck me as very odd in my first game of warbarons.

• Why does an archon eliminate enemy heroes? Shouldnt an archon do something positive, i.e. boost the own troops or eliminate enmy fear/chaos?
• Why does a red dragon boost morale? The horror of burning the enemies alive isnt easy to deal with -- think of the mental problems soldiers using flamethrowers successfuly have (even Game of Thrones got the horrors of dragon fire quite right, unlike other fantasy films featuring dragons), so a chromatic dragon should spread fear rather than boost morale! At the moment it is like "Yay, look at the agony our enemies are in while burning alive! Hooray for dragons, lets wade it and spread some more pain!"
• Why does the devil negate fear? Spreading fear is alright, but negating enemy fear? How? The idiom "Making a deal with the devil" would rather indicate that the devil can eliminate enemy heroes, i.e. cancelling leadership/chaos, by tempting the pure paladin with some sinful crooked deals the night before.

So swapping them round would seem much more thematic: archon(morale)->devil(negate leadership)->dragon(fear/negate morale)->archon(morale)

However, given that the devil does not fly and that a small archon with +5 morale would be obsolete, more thoughts need to be put into that, if any changes were ever to be made towards that end.
I actually like a non-flying strong-anti-leadership unit like that new devil, and also having a lesser devil/demon unit that can fly and that provides the smaller anti-leadership bonus, pretty much like the blue archon, offering the choice of being either more mobile or better at countering heroes. It is a real choice: can you catch the hero without flying? I think a succubus would be the obvious thematic choice for such a flying weaker hero-neutering unit (and every fantasy game is improved by adding a succubus )

I am aware that such changes make a lot of work without improving the game mechanics at all, but being in line with popular themes makes the game also more intuitive and thus easier to learn, so one should not entierly ignore such questions.

[smursh]

The problem with going thematic in abilities is that too many of the strong monsters would all get fear. Certainly rampaging elephants, mamoths, and demons are scary. Also green dragons, ghosts,ect.

Rather than changing existing units adding a few more new ones might be better. I've seen suggestions for 1 hp units with higher strength which seems a good trade. Possibly adding some super expensive 7 turn units could work.(Think an arch devil with 5 fear +10 anti-fear/moral, or maybe a lich with +10 fear) Cost for these units should be hideously expensive so you are choosing not to buy red dragon and devil production in order to buy one of these instead.(I'm thinking closer to 4000 so you really have to want these units)

If you wanted a jack-of-all trades type unit I could see it being useful, but what is the point. Is a unit with +3 moral and +2 fear really better than a unit with +5 moral? It simply prevents you from buying a yeti and benefiting from the combined stack.

[Chazar]

The problem with going thematic in abilities is that too many of the strong monsters would all get fear. Certainly rampaging elephants, mamoths, and demons are scary. Also green dragons, ghosts,ect.

Sure, one could argue that all provide fear, but if one looks for a unit providing morale, then I am much more convinced that a pegasus could do this rather than a medusa - just by the way it fights, i.e. whether it is plausible that it fights dirty or nice.

I find most existing unit bonuses pretty thematic already, except for the mentioned reddragon, archon & devil, and apparently I am not alone with this opinion.

Again, the reason is only the way units fight:
devils are dirty-fighting tricksters, so they can trick a hero, negating their bonsuses;
archons, if interpreted as arch-angels, are a force for good, so they should provide something positive, like morale, since they don't fight dirty; and
a dragon's flame is like dropping napalm - pretty scary.

Maybe the green dragon cannot breathe fire, but fights well because of its size. Not providing fear is not a defect. it is only that it should be plausible that the unit can do what it does.

[LPhillips]

Maybe the green dragon cannot breathe fire, but fights well because of its size. Not providing fear is not a defect. it is only that it should be plausible that the unit can do what it does.

Agreed. We're just looking for feasibility, not adding on every possible ability for every unit. That's silly and I don't really see the connection. No one has suggested that

Simplicity is nice. We don't need to add inconsequential bonuses to units that don't need them. That is why I'd personally prefer a +9 or +10 devil in my super stack to a +8+2. It's an overlap with a real fear unit, not really a useful addition to the army as it's non-stacking redundancy.

But as long as we're discussing super units, I'd like to see some epic ground units. Colossus is planned I think, what do you all think about stats? 3HP, 40 strength, 1500 gold? Does he need Trample ability or something instead (hits for 2 HP some or all of the time), and maybe lower strength or just 2 HP? 1-turn Berserkers: 1HP, 15 strength, +20 on offense, 12 movement? 2HP, 10 strength, +15 on offense, 12 movement?

[smursh]

I agree with your comments on the devil. I also would rather see one +10 ability. If a collosus is planed why not make it the +8 or +10 fear unit, change the devil to +10 anti-moral/fear. The collosus could be more expensive than 1500 in this case, or it could be made a very slow unit. It depends on if you are looking at a 3, 4, or 5 turn unit how much power you want to give it(I think as a slow ground unit it could be a strength 40 4 hit unit without additional skills and would be a good 4 turn unit.)

[LPhillips]

I'd like to see a high-powered, expensive ground fear unit (and preferably quick, not like Medusa's 12 movement). However, I think the Colossus is meant to be a front line troop (a gigantic warrior, think walking super green dragon). We obviously can't combine that with an expensive support type, so why not separate them? Also, I don't think we can go over 8 fear for any unit, unless the fear is conditional (terrain based like the Kraken). A high fear unit is a very powerful multi-purpose counter while simultaneously being tremendously powerful when there is nothing to counter. A +8 to +10 fear walking unit is basically a Devil on steroids in all cases except very wealthy maps where both can be used together. It will literally be the most powerful unit in the game. The saving grace for such a unit would be that it walks and costs 2400-2500 gold.

I'm going to save KGB the step of explaining everything in detail for me when people ask for it
Theoretical power (for 8 fear)
1) Dragon/Elephant: Effectively counters 8 of bonus exactly as Devil would.
2) Units whose bonus is less than 8: better countered by 8 fear than by 8 negate, whether they are exerting fear or morale. Here Devil just counters up to 5, while 8 fear unit exerts full 8 against enemy.
3) Fear and Morale units together: only case where Devil has an advantage, as he may in rare cases counter up to 13 total bonus.
4) Case where no other morale/fear units are present: this unit still exerts -8 fear on enemy troops.

I've left the Kraken out (water based 8 fear unit is kinda irrelevant to discussions of counter by land-based 8 fear unit), and ignored Devil's -2 fear, which can be considered as a slightly mitigating factor in the discussion of its mathematical disadvantage, but does not at all raise the Devil to the strength of an 8 fear unit.

[ams16]

I find most existing unit bonuses pretty thematic already, except for the mentioned reddragon, archon & devil, and apparently I am not alone with this opinion.

Actually, that is the reason I made the initial comment. I just don't like the way these three are, thematically. They just seem wrong. And confusing, especially to newcomers.

[smursh]

I disagree with your assesment that an 8 fear is automatically better than an 8 negate bonus, especially if a unit with 8 fear is added to the game. Climactic game changing battles often involve fear and moral units together. If you can effectively counter two of your opponents key units with one of yours you get a major advantage. So for example if I have a RD and medusa in my stack and you have a devil and pegasus you get 5 moral and 2 fear vs. my 2 moral - a plus five bonus with an equally expensive pair. If we both have our top hero here ir will be a huge blow to the loser. The key as with any bonus unit is how you deploy them and what your opponent deploys. Archons and negate bonus units are a little harder to use since they are best when you surprise your opponent with them, but potentially they are more effective if you can,