calc off

[LPhillips]

Is the negative really -15?

So there is no value to a -18 DK?

Bonuses are caped and it's at 30 and -15.

I think you're wrong there, even though I know you write the battle code
Pretty sure it's -25. If not, it needs to be, or +chaos items, fear units, and high level DK's are all extremely devalued by it.

[KGB]

Personally I think the +30 to -15 range is already too large. That's larger than anything DLR had (+25 to -15) and DLR's range was already so extreme that super stacks could only be killed by assassination (ambush). I would think +20 to -10 should be plenty of range and that would make terrain / attack /defend bonus's a bit more valuable.

There is value to numbers that go beyond -15. They can still eat up positive enemy morale/leadership bonus's. The same with positive numbers that go beyond +30.

KGB

[kenc80]

KGB wrote:

There is value to numbers that go beyond -15. They can still eat up positive enemy morale/leadership bonus's. The same with positive numbers that go beyond +30.

Not to beat a dead horse but I think this needs careful explanation by the game designers.

If I am +35 and I fight your -10DK, does that make me +25? or +20...35-10=25 or 30-10=20?

Similarly, if you throw a devil in, how does he affect the application of the negate?

Ken

[LPhillips]

/headache/
I think I've got it? Ken's question cleared up the reason for the bonuses beyond the caps. All bonuses are applied, including those over -15 and +30, and then the final amount is capped. So if you use +35 Leadership and +10 Morale, then the enemy cancels 10 of it, you get +30 to each unit. If they cancel 17 of it, you get +28 to each unit. If you use -18 Chaos and -5 Fear, and the enemy brings a Crusader, then -15 is applied to the enemy army. If they bring a +9 Leadership Paladin instead, -14 is applied.

The real question is which bonuses are capped positively and which are not? I think innate antiflier does not have the cap applied, as it increases the base strength instead of counting as a bonus. Now how about +Attack, +Defense, and +Terrain? My memory is foggy there. This is important, and even more so when applying the negative! If I bring a -18 Paladin and the enemy has Heavy Cavalry on Open terrain, is the full -18 applied? They're getting +10 Terrain, so shouldn't I be able to counter 3 of that in addition to my -15 cap? So I guess it's really two questions. Are the terrain/attack/defense bonuses applied before or after the positive cap, and before or after the negative cap?

My foggy memory says attack/defense is applied after the positive cap (or rather as a base strength increase), terrain is always applied before the cap, and attack/defense is applied before the negative cap? That seems right, but I may be wrong about the last one.
LP

[KGB]

So if you use +35 Leadership and +10 Morale, then the enemy cancels 10 of it, you get +30 to each unit. If they cancel 17 of it, you get +28 to each unit. If you use -18 Chaos and -5 Fear, and the enemy brings a Crusader, then -15 is applied to the enemy army. If they bring a +9 Leadership Paladin instead, -14 is applied.

Correct.

I think innate antiflier does not have the cap applied, as it increases the base strength instead of counting as a bonus.

Correct again. This is a bug I believe in how Anti-Air is applied since it comes into play DURING battle since it's situational, not before when bonus's are calculated and capped.

In reality I'd like to see Anti-Air simply become it's own bonus not tied to Leadership/Chaos and not be able to be Negated by an Archon. Then in the new hero system that is being developed it can be one of the hero stack powers that is different than Leader/Chaos/Gp Ambush so that there is another hero skill.

Now how about +Attack, +Defense, and +Terrain? My memory is foggy there. This is important, and even more so when applying the negative! If I bring a -18 Paladin and the enemy has Heavy Cavalry on Open terrain, is the full -18 applied? They're getting +10 Terrain, so shouldn't I be able to counter 3 of that in addition to my -15 cap? So I guess it's really two questions. Are the terrain/attack/defense bonuses applied before or after the positive cap, and before or after the negative cap?

Stack bonus's (Leader/Morale/Walls/Chaos/Fear/Siege/Negates) are worked out entirely. Then they are capped in the -15/+30 range. So they do not carry over into individual bonus like terrain/attack/defense/swarm. IMHO that is how it should be because it would be strange to give -18 to a Hv Calv but only -15 to a Gryphon in same stack. It would be impossible to show 1 value.

That's why in the screen layout I proposed I broke things into distinct areas for Individual and Group bonus's and noted that the cap was applied within the each main area (Individual/Group) and then each sub area as appropriate.

The whole thing is so confusing now which is why I think it needs a major revisit. Ideally in 0.9 but definitely by 1.0.

KGB

[LPhillips]

You know, KGB, that seems clear enough. But I'm pretty sure that I have seen +terrain counted in the +30 cap. Any suggestions on how to confirm/dismiss this, short of running a test game?

[KGB]

Piranha could confirm.

But I know in quite a few games I have used a Gryphon against a city in a stack that contained a RD and L1 Paladin and I got +34 strength to the Gryphon (20 terrain, 10 morale, 4 leadership).

If the terrain bonus counted toward the +30 then Spiders and Gryphons would be pretty hosed.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Ah, you're right. All that's left is to verify that, say, a Heavy Infantry really gets +10+30.

[nagrogin]

Verified.

I found this thread because I was annoyed that my stack
in a +10def tower with a +25Open horse lord was only
realizing a +30 bonus defending, rather than +35.

I found the bit about the -15/+30 stack-bonus range here.

And I had some HeavyInf in that stack, which were indeed
defending at 50 (10+10+30) rather than 55.

[kenc80]

yeah I still think we are having problems with "super stack" bonus situations as it relates to the +30.

Recent example:

In game 24260 "Show No Mercy" I have some elves doing just that - they are showing +55 (67STR) in my "super stack"

Stack has: Hero paladin with +16 Morale, +6 Def Shield, +10AA ring (Narya), -3 Armor, +8 Grandfather sword. Stack also had +62 ambush Assassin with +2 morale ring, 1 ghost, 1 pegasus and 4 blessed elves.

Maze attacked and my elves felled 6 demons, a ghost & a red dragon with just 2 elf losses. I'm not complaining but in my opinion it appears the Anti-Air is still stacking outside the +30. Now that may be because Piranha is still showing the AA in case some enemies aren't flying but I still think something isn't right. I think we need to see final capped values at some point!

Thats a good day for my boys in the field if I do say so myself.

Elves at nearly max strength can't be right, right?


Ken