Two assasins

[KGB]

Argammon,

I always play under KGB.

Which version did you play online a lot? I only played the original AOW online and that would have been a lot of years ago now (01-02?). I played Shadow Magic online but only with known friends from Warlords so you wouldn't recognize me from that version. Another old Warlord named Gryffone played a bit of Shadow Magic online and still plays in the tournaments they organize once or twice a year so you might recognize his name.

KGB

[Argammon]

Aow 1 a lot, some Aow 2 wizards throne and some Aow Shadow Magic.

Actually, I was AOW 1 world champion in 99 or 2000 (cant remember) Tournament was hosted by Starlance. Thus, anyone who played competitively back then should probably remember me. I kept playing for a few years on some online ladder site. Moreover, I played a few email games. Not that many though.

Off topic; I cant type on a laptop... G%$T$%

[LPhillips]

KGB,

It doesn't take a stack of 32 men and a choke point to employ this strategy. Assassins are fast, and the real difficulty with the assassin defense isn't the city itself. It's the ability to intercept anything trying to get past. These people are employing assassins and ghosts, so obviously they intercept anything. That's the best interception force for powerful stacks that you could ever ask for, and you don't need a tiny choke. You can cover a 30 tile area from one city with this tactic. It works just fine on Battlefield.

LP

[smursh]

There is still a way to go around here. Simply move a strong, but not super stack within 15 hexes to bypass the city. Keep your own super stack of an assasin with ghosts close enough to cover. When your opponent leaves the city to attack you he will be in range for a counter. So you only can really cover half the distance from your city if you want to get back after a sortie. And anyway to cover the entire width of the battlefield map you would need four stacks of assasins/ghosts. If you have this many ambush units you probably are going to win anyway regardless of using a choke point strategy. On almost any map you will have insufficient forces to put a choke point everywhere. If your opponent creates a choke point, send your armies where he doesn't have one. If you focus on his choke point you play into his strategy.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Smursh is correct in what he says about shadowing with your own hero. It's like in Checkers when you sit 1 man 2 squares away to allow endless checkers to go in for a king. The opponent is pinned in the city.

Another way on Battlefield is to send 2 stacks, one left and one right by the city about 10-12 squares away. Only one can be caught unless you have multiple heroes. In which case there is LOTS of other map area to move around and find another soft spot.

Battlefield like Bullrun is all about maneuvering armies. There are precious few chokepoints on those maps that can create anything like the stalemates that can be achieved on many other maps. I've never had a problem on either of those maps moving around enemy strong points. It's why I enjoy those maps and others like Midguard that don't regress into trench warfare.

Also how are you ranging 30 squares (15 in each direction). That requires 30 movement (other than roads which are are precious few of on that map). Ghosts even boosted with Mammoths don't have 30 moves. Your max suicide range (ie not returning) is about 13 squares with a movement boost and only about 6-7 squares if you plan to return to your city.

KGB

[LPhillips]

30 tiles was indeed the intended statement. I don't understand how you can suggest that the enemy is only using one stack (the hero stack) to intercept on a two-way course (attack and retreat), while you can employ several strong stacks with higher mobility to overcome the tactic. This is first of all non-equivalent comparison, and second it ignores the roles of scouting and an intelligent opponent who only commits his trump card when he has your real stack in sight.

I still maintain that Assassins as interceptors are extremely effective on Battlefield. Play someone who favors them, and you'll see that. Needing to redeploy vast amounts of troops across 10-20 tiles means that the defense has been highly effective, as you lose several turns to your opponents. The trouble is that the Assassin can set up this point at the front rather early, and then there's an unconquerable fortress in one or more places. That's all you need for map control. Quite effective on a map with no terrain features to allow tactics to overcome the strategy.

It is self-evident that choke points are completely dominated by the tactic, but the comparison of a terribly unbalanced situation with a milder imbalance does not invalidate the point being made. In fact, even if there are some maps and situations in which this tactic cannot be employed (namely maps where unit and city counts are too low) it does not at all remove the problem: we have a balance issue here. There's still no effective counter to this tactic, so in effect we have a penultimate strategy again, with no viable alternatives.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I guess I've never seen anyone employ this successfully on Battlefield and I've played a fair number of players there. Then again I tend to make gobs of reasonably fast L1/L2 units (Lt Calv, Eagles, Wizards, Giants) boosted with a RD or Pegasi and just swarm all over the map so I don't care much if they die in masses to Ghosts or Assassin heroes because they are so easily replaced.

we have a balance issue here. There's still no effective counter to this tactic, so in effect we have a penultimate strategy again, with no viable alternatives.

What you do mean by effective counter? You can use your own Ghost/Assassin stacks. Or use masses of cheap units that you can make faster than they can make Ghosts (trading 1 Ghost for a single 1 turn unit is a very bad deal obviously, trading 1 Ghost for a pair of 1 turn units is a bad deal and trading 1 Ghost for three 1 turn units is roughly equal). I still don't believe anyone can consistently maintain a 30 tile range with 1 Assassin stack against the fast moving cheap units I use.

Also the game is always going to have a penultimate strategy. ALWAYS. In the last Beta it was Demons. If you do something about Ambush (like remove it or seriously nerf it) then it will be back to Devil/Archon/Unicorn. In DLR the game revolved around heroes.

Right now it seems to me the game has 3 strategies you can pursue:

1) Gobs of stacks consisting of 1 or 2 turn units inflated with a bonus unit.
2) A few power stacks consisting of 3+ turn power units and bonus units.
3) An average number of stacks consisting of ambush units and other 1 turn units.

Strategy 2 beats 1. Strategy 3 beats 2. Strategy 1 beats 3.

KGB

[LPhillips]

I don't see how strategy 1 beats 3. No one employs 3 exclusively, and having map control is a win (which is the issue discussed). The problem is that Assassination is not serving its intended purpose: allowing a well-run underdog army to win, and/or countering power stacks. It is instead becoming a static defense problem.

[Argammon]

I don't know if there is a problem. If there is:

a) Ambush only works on attack.

b) Introduce 2 separate skills: Ambush attack and ambush defense. Ambush attack is higher than ambush defense.

Of course, the values must be adjusted accordingly.

[ams16]

Actually, I think it would make sense for ambush to work on defense, and ONLY on defense.

How do you move into an enemy held territory and ambush them? If they move into your territory, you can set up an ambush, but moving into their territory requires entering their "turf".

If ambush is on defense, and only defense, a lot of the issues mentioned go away. Of course, the Assassin hero type become fairly useless, but....