Ruins & Dead Heroes - Early game gamble problem?!

[Chazar]

I like ruins and their loot, but I hate dead heroes.

The problem is that players gamble the entire game on the common 1st level ruin near the starting capital:
- the benefit of searching it in the first or second turn is huge for the early expansion (items and XP=skills prevent unit losses, at a time that few units are around; possibly money to get the next hero that can expand)
- loosing the one and only hero is equally devastating
However, since the chances of loosing the hero are around ~15%, one cannot afford to not take this gamble. Thus, the entire game rests pretty much on this gamble: ~85% good exansion, ~15% of pretty much loosing the game.

So I am wondering about possible ways to soften this "all or nothing"-gamble in the early turns:

• Only allow 2nd level heroes to search 1st level ruins (i.e. ruin level n requires hero level n+1), so no player can gamble early on. Meh.
• Heroes don't die right away, but get something pretty bad instead. It ought to hurt, but I don't know what. Maybe the permanent loss of strength, lore or movement points; maybe some negative XP? Meh.
• Ruins only open up after a certain turn number. Meh.

Any other suggestions?

I think the level restriction would be unpopular (I don't like the existing restrictions already). The problem with the second is repeated searching - this could be fixed in two ways: heroes loosing all move when searching, and requiring 1 move point to search, or alternatively, that heroes eventually die once the reduced score goes below a threshold (i.e. 3-4 losses = dead). The third seems unnatural and getting the right number for each map would be a pain.

[Finite]

Maybe an ability to reincarnate a slain hero in closest city (or capital?) for some amount of cash (200 gold or something)? Hero would be always 1st level so no use for it late game, but might make the early bad luck more tolerable.

Mostly the game needs an accurate percentage display of the risk you are taking by "venturing in" to prevent new people from losing heroes unexpectedly.

[KGB]

Chazar,

I suggest buying scouts in your capitol then on turn 1. Searching a ruin on turn 1 vs turn 2 or 3 isn't that much of a game breaker. I often wait an extra turn for another scout. Or make sure you take heroes who are good ruin searchers (Horselord, Paladin) as your first hero.

If you go back and read what I wrote on 1st turn game strategy you'll realize many gamble because they have enough starting gold to get another hero on turn 2 if the first one dies. So they can take the risk and if they lose they buy Scouts instead of better units if they win.

Trust me if people stop gambling on early ruins they will just start gambling on taking neutrals. The game is all about risk. Everything shouldn't be 100% success or if it is you have a time penalty to reach that 100%.

Mostly the game needs an accurate percentage display of the risk you are taking by "venturing in" to prevent new people from losing heroes unexpectedly.

How can you get an accurate percentage display of the risk when you don't know whether the ruin has anywhere between 1 Skeleton and 2 Ghouls. The first is probably 98% to win while the latter is probably 60%.

KGB

[Moonknight]

Maybe he means in the battle calculator...I like the ruin system as it is now, you will learn at what UL you need to be to guarantee a successful ruin visit.

The only hero i'd take into a level 1 ruin without any help or leveling up UL is the Horse Lord. My Pali has been slained many times on turn 1, I'd at least have a Scout with him.

Similar topic, I'm loving the Barbarian for ruin searching since he gets 3 hits.

[Finite]

Mostly the game needs an accurate percentage display of the risk you are taking by "venturing in" to prevent new people from losing heroes unexpectedly.

How can you get an accurate percentage display of the risk when you don't know whether the ruin has anywhere between 1 Skeleton and 2 Ghouls. The first is probably 98% to win while the latter is probably 60%.

It could display the average percentage that all those 98%s and 60%:s produce with an "are you sure" toggle if the percentage is less than 100% (and if it is 100% not show the combat at all since it has no purpose)... Actually it doesn't need to be dead on accurate, even a "my hero is 20%-30% likely to die" would be plenty.

The "dice sides" are just a clunky concept and it even seems that they are off somehow, at least my lore 11 hero did not get hit on rolling either 1 or 12... Is it the 90% rule mixed in for ruins combat as well?

[KGB]

Finite,

Here's some important tips on ruins

1) The 90% rule is not in effect
2) When your UL (hero+items+units) = the Sides for the ruin you are 100% guaranteed to win. So 12+ UL always is 100% successful on L1 ruin.

Everything after that is completely unknowable without revealing what is in the ruin. For example if it said your L1 Paladin with 9 UL was only 25% likely to search a ruin you'd know it likely contained 2 Ghouls while if it said your L1 Paladin with 9 UL was 95% likely to search a ruin you'd know it likely contained 1 Skeleton. If it said your L1 Paladin with 9 UL was 100% likely to search a ruin you'd know there are no guardians and you are getting allies.

The personal item I requested from the Kickstarter pledge (which I hope appears in version 0.9) reveals what the ruin guardians and ruin rewards are. Of course you have to find the item to use it. But once you have it you'll always know what's in all the ruins.

KGB

[smursh]

If you remove the gamble what would be the point. Just like betting on poker, you have to judge the odds and whether it is worth the gamble. I generally want at least UL 9, but will occasionally gamble with a DN at 8UL8. And losing that first hero does not guarantee defeat, it just makes your game that much harder.

[Finite]

KGB: Thanks for the reply. I know how the sides (are supposed to?) work by now but was completely at loss in the first game. Plus it is hard to calculate how big a risk you are taking by going in with less than the max.

Mainly I was looking for an explanation for why an UL 11 hero in level 1 ruin would hit the opponent on all possible rolls (well, at least on 1 and 12) when by the rules it would seem that he should lose 1 roll of every 12?

And you don't need to check what is in the ruin if it would just display the rough percentages counting in all the possible numbers of enemies in the ruins? It is easy to say that on average your hero has to roll 4 times or something. And preferably could convert the ruin dice into percentages like everything else in the game - what advantage do the dice sides give?

[KGB]

Finite,

Mainly I was looking for an explanation for why an UL 11 hero in level 1 ruin would hit the opponent on all possible rolls (well, at least on 1 and 12) when by the rules it would seem that he should lose 1 roll of every 12?

Are you sure his UL was 11 and not 12? He could be getting UL from another army with him. A 12 roll should be a miss for a hero that only has 11 UL.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Some people dislike uncertainty. But the whole point is the gamble. If we didn't want a gamble, we'd not have a dice system.