Version 0.9 hero preview

[smursh]

I agree with KGB that ambush should be an instant kill rather than 3 hits.

If the argument is that the barbarian should not be so vulnerable to ambush give him a personal warding skill, cap the maximum total warding(say at 80%) and leave it at that. A reasonable value would be 25 points of personal warding for 5 points to a maximum of 75 personal warding.(Similar in cost to the personal ambush cost for the assassin.)

[KGB]

I wouldn't allow personal warding to go that high. 30 tops with +10 for 5 points. The game can always add some personal warding to new items too.

The danger with too high a warding is that the few units with natural ambush will become very weak/useless (70% of an Orcs warding being lost will reduce him to only 2% chance, a Wolfrider to only 4% etc). There is no way I would allow warding to go past 70% (individual and group combined). In fact Warding might be better off only affecting group ambush and not individual ambush. The Orc will almost certainly need to go back to 10 strength where he belongs with this addition to the game.

KGB

[jetigig]

Why didn't you use the regular anti-air symbol? (The one with the bird and an arrow through it.)

[Negern]

Why didn't you use the regular anti-air symbol? (The one with the bird and an arrow through it.)

Maybe it will change in the new version.

[piranha]

Currently we have bird + flag or bird + chaos face to show those bonuses but since we don't have a standard group bonus icon I used the archery board for a new icon. Since it's group anti air and not leadership or chaos based. Perhaps we should get a group icon to use a a standard instead since we are going to have group ward and ward too and they need icons.

Any ideas for a group icon?

Ok I can change the ambush back to instant kill.

[LPhillips]

These additions look great! Is there any change in the hero skill system for this version? I expect a firm "no", but it's important to the discussion/speculation!

With the addition of warding, there's a possibility of not needing to reduce the Ambush to 3. I suggest including the personal warding ability for Barbarian in this update if you're not going to nerf ambush. Now that Warding is on the table, it's the perfect fix for this. He would be such a good, interesting hero choice if Ambush did not make him utterly worthless. I honestly love the Barbarian but hiring him is like shooting oneself in the foot in competitive play lately.

Also, Ward applied as a percentage certainly cannot be allowed to reach 100%. I don't know if 70% is the right number (We could instead see Ambush get stronger again, including personal ambush stats). You could afford to let it go higher with items only (maybe capped at 80% or 85%), so that there is a very hard counter for Ambush. You will still have units with innate ambush ability whose pre-Ward stats are well over 100% in a good stack and will still apply a strong ambush. A higher cap also opens the door for better ambush-wielding units.

I strongly suggest flattening the curve for the Warding ability. Maybe start it at 40% and let it be 10% increases. We need something that can be purchased immediately to counter Assassin abuse (even taking into account the fact that the hero may be level 2 or 3 in mid-game when we get him). He ought to be able to take on an Assassin on the field without needing to be well-leveled and have become a Warding specialist, neglecting all practical skills. Also, there should not be any group warding that is not hero-related, which should prevent Assassin from being gimped.

Edit: Obviously, if he starts at 40% warding then upgrades have to be slightly more expensive.

[Maze]

Looks great!
Why not give her the ability to lead an army through forest and swamp with move cost 2 (basic, like orcs, elves, wolf riders, mammoths and giants on their terrains) or even 1 (specialized, like dwarves and sandworms on their terrains?
I can imagine 1 might be too much for the game's balance but it would make the ranger the unstoppable "ruler" of forests and swamps.
But of course 2 is good too, but not giving the ranger this ability seems odd, she has huge strength but doesn't know her way in the forest or swamp?
Or 1 for forest and 2 for "hey it is not easy to get through this" swamp.

Why didn't you use the regular anti-air symbol? (The one with the bird and an arrow through it.)

Actually this "regular anti-air symbol" is the symbol for non-hero units, heroes have their own symbols (like morale vs leadership, ...) and I would argue that the anti-air that comes with narya and Icarus bow should have a different symbol as well.

Any ideas for a group icon?

What about one or three arrows from bottom left to top right, sky blue background?

[SnotlinG]

Maze, currently she starts with the Elves movespecial ability (i.e. movecost 2 through forest and can lead units), and starts with 2 points of pathfinding, i.e. cost 4 for move in swamp and all other terrains.

[jetigig]

I agree with KGB that ambush should be an instant kill rather than 3 hits.

I disagree with ambush being a three hit combo. That said though, nothing is more disheartening than seeing your high level Barbarian die to a single Orc. Maybe ambush could be 4 hits so that it could still beat heroes with Gabriel's Heart. After all, in the description of the Barbarian says that he can take hits that would kill a normal man and continue fighting.

Also, there should not be any group warding that is not hero-related, which should prevent Assassin from being gimped.

I definitely agree with this. I am guessing that the Ranger's warding and anti-air will stack with other Rangers like the Assassin. Is this correct?

[LPhillips]

I definitely agree with this. I am guessing that the Ranger's warding and anti-air will stack with other Rangers like the Assassin. Is this correct?

Absolutely not, as I understand it. Nothing else on the Rangers stack, so balancing Ward around needing 2 or more to effectively counter ambush is absurd. One Ranger needs to be effective enough that stacked Warding would be too powerful.