Version 0.9 hero preview

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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby KGB » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:40 pm

LPhillips,

LPhillips wrote:I thought it went without saying that 10 points couldn't cost 10 leadership points. But I guess it bears pointing out. I would imagine that it would cost more like 5 to 8 points, leaving the opportunity to purchase some practical abilities as well.

Also, please consider the addition of more powerful and effective Ambush units in the future, or even simply the reinstatement of our previously good Ambush units. That is the point. Not just balancing it around Ghost stacks or Ghost+Eagle/Wolfrider now (which are in fact a real and present danger in many games, especially with fast movement, moderate upkeep, moderate investment, versatile employment, and high effect on strong stacks).

We can't balance Ambush around using it to break down cities, no matter how fond we are of doing it. It's not intended for that. If anything, we must push for a more effective siege weapon or combat system, rather than gimping normal combat balance to fill the hole. I admit there's a need, but Ambush isn't a solution.


I agree with all these statements. I especially agree with the idea of needing something else besides ambush to break down really strong cities. As long as something like that comes into the game then Ambush isn't going to be needed for that role and it can go back to it's intended role of killing/damaging hero stacks and power stacks.

But do you really think Group Warding needs to go 40/50/60/70 (at L4) to be useful vs my preference of 20/35/50/65? My fear is that 40% will be more than enough Warding for 90% of the cases (other than an Assassin with 70% in a city with more than 8 defenders) leaving the Ranger to spend all their level up points on AA/Leadership so that you end up with a Ranger at L4 with 40% Ward/10AA/+12 in Forest/Swamp (or +20 in one). On many maps that's going to be a killer hero even against cities full of Gryphons/GD's/Demons. On the other hand if you start the Ward at 20 you make them spend at couple of level ups to reach 50 so that at L4 they are 50 Ward with 1 level up to spend on AA/Leadership as needed.

As far as higher individual ambush on some units, lets worry about that when it happens (I think the current 70% cap and individual unit ambushes for the Medusa/Ghost/Wolfrider/Orc seem right other than the Orc probably needs to rise to 10 ambush and 10 strength). The game can always add a new unit with high individual warding (say 50) to balance that so you have another option besides Rangers.

Your comments on purchasing a level 3 and then directly employing it as a +20 leadership unit brings up a separate but important issue: without the need to level new heroes, without the opportunity cost and required stratagem, how can abilities like this be balanced? If I can purchase a hero (very randomly, which makes it even worse) and immediately use it with +20 morale against your stack standing on the appropriate terrain in the same turn, how can that ever be balanced? Anti-Morale will have to be as common as Ambush, and these hard-to-level but situationally strong heroes will still be gamebreakers.

I could see only allowing hero offers in Capitols, but that doesn't fully alleviate the problem. That moves heroes toward the point of being only marginally involved in the real conflicts, without helping with their easily overpowering stature on the battlefield. Alternately, a level 2 or 3 hero could always come with their own native skillset, preventing imbalance. For example: A level 3 Ranger always has +12 in each terrain bonus. Ability points might still be accessible to the player. A level 3 Valkeria can't come pre-loaded with +14 Attack bonus, can she?


A L3 Valkyrie comes with +10, not +14 but I know what you meant. A HL can come with +15 in one of his terrains at L3.

I've thought about this for a while actually. It's going to be way overpowering to have a random hero show up especially the specialized ones who might immediately swing a game with a +15 type bonus along with any allies the might come with. My thought is this. Even though you purchase the hero at L2-L4, the hero only comes at L1. Then on the next turn you get +1000XP to reach L2, the following turn another +1000 to reach L3 and then the turn after that +1500 (I think it's 1500 to get to L4). Thus it takes 2-4 turns for the hero to fully get to the level you purchased them at. This prevents game breaking heroes from appearing in front line cities while most of the time you'll be moving toward the lines and leveling during your movement there. In the mean time the hero could still level up from normal game XP during those turns, they would just get the +X added at the start of the next few turns.

Edit: KGB, There's also an increasing return for higher Warding skill. Especially when it is applied pre-cap, and especially if more strong Ambush units are ever to be present in the game. This also should go without saying. 70% Group Warding is over 100% more effective than 40% Group Warding. Being a big math guy, you'll appreciate that.


Isn't 70% exactly 100% more effective? Eg. 100% ambush X 70% ward = 30% ambush. 100% ambush X 40% ward = 60% ambush. 30 vs 60 = 100% more effective.

Again I claim 40% would be more than enough for 90% of the time in the game. You really only need higher than 40 against high level Assassin heroes or stacks of 6-8 Ghosts. I don't want L1 heroes having all the Warding they need.

KGB
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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby smursh » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:13 am

I agree that warding should start low to force you to spend for it if you want it. Looking at the hero sheet anti-air is not listed as leadership. If anti-air is now a seperate skill it will be as powerful as anti-ambush. Stack your ranger with a high level paladin and get his leadership and your anti-air and you can devastate some of the strongest/most expensive units in the game. This is much more unbalancing than ambush since anyone who has purchased these units will produce them over and over. If you have a strong anti-ambush unit I just won't buy any more assassins - my problem is solved.

Still, nothing says you have to buy griffons/dragons/assassins. You can always just take DK/Pali and elementals. This is the problem/benefit for a situational hero. You have to judge the situation.
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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby SnotlinG » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:40 am

smursh wrote:Looking at the hero sheet anti-air is not listed as leadership. If anti-air is now a seperate skill it will be as powerful as anti-ambush.


Yes group antiair is not counted as leadership, so it is powerful. The cost for increasing it will increase though, so first step from +5 to +10 cost 10points (as can be seen in image), and next step from +10 to +15 costs 15p, meaning you cant reach +15 until you are at least level 4.
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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby Moonknight » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:26 pm

SnotlinG, will AA be capped? Say a Ranger is +15 with a +5 AA item, and traveling with a flock of Eagles. Will the Eagles get +42 AA?
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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby jetigig » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:02 pm

Moonknight wrote:SnotlinG, will AA be capped?


Has it ever been capped? However, I do see the importance of putting a cap on it at say, 40, to prevent fliers from becoming useless.
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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby KGB » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:51 pm

Jetigig,

It's capped currently at 30 because it's part of the leadership bonus which is capped at 30.

I think a cap of 30 would be very reasonable for AA now that it's in it's own bonus category. Maybe even as low as a 25 cap.

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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby jetigig » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:30 am

KGB,
30 is very reasonable. But only for the group AA. Personal anti-air could still exceed the limit, yes?

Will there be something that negates anti-air now that it is a group skill and provided by a hero?
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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby smursh » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:38 am

The counter for anti-air has always been ground/sea units. I don't see any reason for that to change.
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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby KGB » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:23 am

Jetigig,

I would make it 30 (or 25) total from group and personal. The Eagle is the only unit even remotely limited by that number since it starts at 22 (but the Eagle could change to base 15 strength and +20 AA). Letting personal AA go on top of group AA would be a bit much as an Eagle could end up with +52 AA making it a 65 strength unit (70 blessed, 75 with a Pegasi or RD when unblessed).

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Re: Version 0.9 hero preview

Postby Moonknight » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:34 pm

smursh wrote:The counter for anti-air has always been ground/sea units. I don't see any reason for that to change.


Agree completely...

And I would vote for 30 total anti-air cap (personal + group).
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