Barbarians need improvement

[FatsXL]

Why are Barbarians the only Hero without a stat unique to them? Negate Aura is the only Hero specialty skill that doesn't stack AND the only one that a regular unit surpasses. There just doesn't seem to be a need for Barbarians unless you need a really strong battle unit, a need which shrinks the more a game goes on. Barbarian stacks generally get shredded by other Hero stacks.

To alleviate this, Barbarians should replace Archons as the anti-Hero unit.
Starts with +3 up to maximum of +15.
15p for +3

Then Archons should be given some other stat in compensation.

Thoughts?

[KGB]

FatsXL,

The Barbarian is the only unit that can add more hits. That is their unique stat. It's just individual not stack based.

If you are using a Barbarian in a stack you are using him wrong. He is meant to go solo or with 1 flying unit to rapidly capture cities / raid enemy cities. Once he reaches 65 strength (or 70 blessed) at L4 he is a beast. Even at L3 he can capture most neutrals on his own and take down lightly defended (2-3 1-turn units) enemy cities. At L5+ when he gets that 4 and 5th hit he is almost impossible to kill without Ambush.

I never take any Negate skill for him (unless he somehow goes beyond L7) at all so I don't care whether he has it or not. I'd much prefer the Negate skill be replaced by the new Warding skill for him only to help against the Ambush. Start it at 20 at L1 and increase by 10 for 10 points up to a max of 50.

KGB

[Jeremy]

But every strong strategy/stack needs a way to take it out -- and isn't Ambush that way for really strong Barbarians?

I wouldn't want Barbarians able to not have their one Achilles' Heel.

[FatsXL]

KGB,

Extra hits is not unique to Heroes, plenty of regular units have extra hits and some units equal the Barbarians maximum. If Barbarians had a skill that gave the entire stack 1 extra hit that would be unique, but they don't. Leadership and Chaos are unique Hero stats.

I'm not saying Barbarians are useless. I am saying that in the majority of cases, aside from the early advantage any other Hero equally leveled is superior. Barbarian heroes are individually very strong but all the other Heroes make their entire stack better while Barbs do not. That makes the Barbarians role very niche.

You mentioned anti-ambush and now that I think on it this would fit more than what I suggested earlier. The new Warding skill for the upcoming Ranger reduces Ambush by a %, rather than completely negating it. It seems to me Rangers are unnecessary as this would be a much better fit for Barbarians. Why add a new Hero class when one is already in need and can fill the same role.

[KGB]

Jeremy,

Having Warding won't make the Barbarian immune to ambush. It will just help reduce the chance he gets killed by 1 Orc or 1 Wolfrider. This will be important in 0.9 because the neutral Ambush units will start having their ambush power. Right now the Barb does not need to fear them when taking neutrals. In 0.9 he will have to fear them so the Warding helps reduce that fear but not eliminate it.

FatsXL,

Ah, but those units with 3 (or 4) hits never can get more than they start with. The Barb starts with 3 hits (the only hero that does) and can increase all the way to 5. That's a unique skill in that he starts with 3 and can increase his hits. Not to mention the fact his strength goes FAR past what any other heroes does.

I use the Barbarian a lot for early expansion and then raiding my opponents cities. I don't plan for him to live to past the mid game stage and he never travels with a stack. For late game / stack power I level up a 2nd or 3rd hero. I use him to get an early advantage that I plan to convert into a win. No other hero can do that since none of the others can travel alone allowing 2x expansion speed.

The Ranger fits better as the protector hero. The Anti-Air is a natural fit and the Warding skills fits far better than it does on a Barbarian. I think of my Barbarians as loners like Conan who are unmatched in single combat. I never picture them as leaders of armies.

KGB

[FatsXL]

I use the Barbarian a lot for early expansion and then raiding my opponents cities. I don't plan for him to live to past the mid game stage and he never travels with a stack. For late game / stack power I level up a 2nd or 3rd hero. I use him to get an early advantage that I plan to convert into a win. No other hero can do that since none of the others can travel alone allowing 2x expansion speed.

Mhmm, but if the Barbarian had something to mitigate other Heroes advantages he could transition into a more useful Hero late game. He wouldn't be as useful as the others when fighting non Hero stacks, but he would have something to help in Hero vs Hero stack battles so that it wouldn't be so one sided. That's why Warding would be perfect, it's moderately useful against ambush units, a little against most other Heroes and quite a lot against Assassins which currently don't have a direct counter. Why create Rangers when Barbarians can fill the same role, and need something other than being a one trick pony?

The Ranger fits better as the protector hero. The Anti-Air is a natural fit and the Warding skills fits far better than it does on a Barbarian. I think of my Barbarians as loners like Conan who are unmatched in single combat. I never picture them as leaders of armies.

I don't get you, in the same thread you argue for Warding on Barbarians you argue against it. Do you really want to get into Loreplay as subjective justification for something? Because I could argue "Conan" would probably not get caught unaware by assassins, in fact Conan was an assassin himself, so it would fit just as well on him as "Aragorn the Ranger".

FYI Plenty of "Barbarians" led armies in human History. Attila the Hun, Chingis Khan, Alaric, Alboin etc..

[KGB]

FatsXL,

I agree that Conan would not be caught unaware. I'm arguing for the Barbarian to have personal Warding, not stack warding. Stack Warding is for the Ranger or other protector type hero (Priest/Druid etc).

Besides what's wrong with more hero types?

KGB

[smursh]

Most of the newer heroes are specialists, nothing wrong with that. It makes it more difficult to choose your hero, and thus rewards the player who buys the best hero for the map/game situation.

As for the barbarian he is so strong for early expansion it is justified that he is less valuable late in the game. The only change I would make would be to reduce the cost of the negate skill, 10 pnts for 1 pnt of negate is way too expensive.

If any hero needs to be reworked it would be the valkyrie. By 5th level you have maxed the attack leadership which is the main skill, not much room for improving after that.

[LPhillips]

Most of the newer heroes are specialists, nothing wrong with that. It makes it more difficult to choose your hero, and thus rewards the player who buys the best hero for the map/game situation.

As for the barbarian he is so strong for early expansion it is justified that he is less valuable late in the game. The only change I would make would be to reduce the cost of the negate skill, 10 pnts for 1 pnt of negate is way too expensive.

If any hero needs to be reworked it would be the valkyrie. By 5th level you have maxed the attack leadership which is the main skill, not much room for improving after that.

We need a new hero skill for her to look at after that. Something along the lines of DLR's Acid or such. Mostly beneficial when used with her usual skillset. Right now, about all we could do with her would be to give her more personal movement upgrades or group movement upgrades, which somewhat defeats the purpose of those settings as they are currently: to balance her. She just needs an expensive secondary ability which works well with her +attack.

Edit: Turn/time-based abilities will make a lot of sense in the new real-time games. Right now we'd just lose track of them. But eventually, she could have an ability to temporarily boost group movement by 4 or something like that (2 turn duration, 1-turn warmup?). That would obviously be very dynamic, as you wouldn't know when the enemy has it active. "War Horn, inspire your army as they march toward battle!"

[KGB]

My personal preference is that the Valkrie start with the flight skill (they are depicted as either having wings or riding flying horses). That doesn't help give her something else to invest in after L6 but it would make her a more interesting hero to take if you needed a hero who could fly.

KGB