Need more multi movement bonus unit

[Horyu]

I would wish to see more dual or triple movement bonus unit available.
We have sea serpent , wolf rider , kraken for swamp and forest, Elemental for desert and volcanic.
I would suggest the following;

Warbear
Movement : 16
Battle skill : 25
Build time : 2 turner
View radius : 3
HP : 2
Plunder : 40
Upkeep : 4
Cost : 675
Seige : 5
Movement bonus : basic snow , basic hill , basic forest can carry hero

Gargoyle
Movement : 15
Battle skill : 10
Build time : 2 turner
View radius : 4
HP : 2
Plunder : 20
Upkeep : 3
Cost : 300
City terrain + 5
Defend +5
Movement bonus : Light Flyer cannot carry hero , basic volcanic move at 3 cannot carry hero

[smursh]

Your Gargoyle is too weak to be useful as a 2 turn unit. Even with the +5 city it is useless on attack, and defending a city it is only as strong as a hv. inf. If it was a 1 turn unit with strength 8, keep the city bonus but without the defense bonus it might be useful as a 1 turn combat flyer.

[Horyu]

Your Gargoyle is too weak to be useful as a 2 turn unit. Even with the +5 city it is useless on attack, and defending a city it is only as strong as a hv. inf. If it was a 1 turn unit with strength 8, keep the city bonus but without the defense bonus it might be useful as a 1 turn combat flyer.

Players may want to secure a choke point so it is make sense to have a solely defend unit to be in place.
I may think to have gargoyle have swarm defend when 2 or more gargoyles in defending the city. I revised as follow;

Gargoyle
Movement : 15
Battle skill : 10
Build time : 2 turner
View radius : 4
HP : 2
Plunder : 20
Upkeep : 3
Cost : 300
Swarm defend 4(5)
City terrain + 5
Defend +5
Movement bonus : Light Flyer cannot carry hero , basic volcanic move at 3 cannot carry hero

[smursh]

I guess my main issue with the gargoyl here is what good is a flyer with defense bonus? The main use of flyers is their ability to make quick strikes across varied terrain. Why use flyers to guard a choke point? It seems more reasonable/useful if you have city bonus instead of defense bonus. As a two turn unit with 15 strength and +10 city it would be a better two turn unit.

[LPhillips]

Yes, a flier's strength is in mobility. Thus the only value for +defense on a mobility-based unit is if that makes it more difficult to intercept them, so that you can't easily stop them from reaching vulnerable cities. However, we have Eagles, who are 35 strength against fliers for 2 turns of production. There are also other effective anti-air measures such as elves and wizards. That means the Gargoyle will be useless.

Smursh is making a lot of sense here. This unit would be extremely situational: only really useful to reinforce an offensive against counterattack when someone needs to get his reinforcements over mountains/water on very specific maps, has planned ahead and produced them in quantity, and is not hard-countered by cheap anti-air units.
In other words, not useful at all.

The War Bear, on the other hand, is too strong. 40 plunder on a Creature (intelligent/Golden Compass bears)? Good movement, 25 strength in 2 turns, 3 terrain movement bonuses, and siege+5.
The real problem here is the Siege ability. That's relegated to purpose-built siege engines. If you introduce this unit, what earthly good is the Battering Ram? 175g extra cost and you have a fast-moving, terrain-bypassing, hero-carrying, looting, 25-strength ram.
The War Bear would need to ignore walls instead of +5 Siege, have 20 strength, and have 5-15 plunder ability. He'd still have to cost ~625-650 to produce. It seems implied that he leads no one but heroes, which is also necessary.

[Horyu]

Yes, a flier's strength is in mobility. Thus the only value for +defense on a mobility-based unit is if that makes it more difficult to intercept them, so that you can't easily stop them from reaching vulnerable cities. However, we have Eagles, who are 35 strength against fliers for 2 turns of production. There are also other effective anti-air measures such as elves and wizards. That means the Gargoyle will be useless.

Smursh is making a lot of sense here. This unit would be extremely situational: only really useful to reinforce an offensive against counterattack when someone needs to get his reinforcements over mountains/water on very specific maps, has planned ahead and produced them in quantity, and is not hard-countered by cheap anti-air units.
In other words, not useful at all.

The War Bear, on the other hand, is too strong. 40 plunder on a Creature (intelligent/Golden Compass bears)? Good movement, 25 strength in 2 turns, 3 terrain movement bonuses, and siege+5.
The real problem here is the Siege ability. That's relegated to purpose-built siege engines. If you introduce this unit, what earthly good is the Battering Ram? 175g extra cost and you have a fast-moving, terrain-bypassing, hero-carrying, looting, 25-strength ram.
The War Bear would need to ignore walls instead of +5 Siege, have 20 strength, and have 5-15 plunder ability. He'd still have to cost ~625-650 to produce. It seems implied that he leads no one but heroes, which is also necessary.

LPhillips have some good advise that enlighten me. Hereby i will revise again. Let see more interesting comments will make this good.

Warbear
Movement : 16
Battle skill : 20
Build time : 2 turner
View radius : 3
HP : 2
Plunder : 30
Upkeep : 4
Cost : 675
Seige : 5
Movement bonus : basic snow , basic hill , basic forest can carry hero

Gargoyles
Movement: 14
Strength (battle skill): 10
Build time: 1 turn
View radius: 4
HP: 2
Plunder: 20
Upkeep: 3
Cost: 350
Defend +5
City swarm defend 3(3)
Sacrifice this unit will add tower or city wall level up by 1
Light flier, volcanic move 3 cannot carry hero

[KGB]

I think a 1 turn flier will never be allowed.

The Crow has already undergone many changes in order to remain as a viable 1 turn flying unit. The Gargoyle just dwarfs the Crows power so there is no chance this unit would get approved.


As for the Warbear what would be his value? You can get the same Siege and combat numbers for far less money in a Battering Ram. So his only value is in his terrain bonus and other than snow you can get that from 1 turn units.

KGB

[LPhillips]

KGB, in the case of siege units, I think people might value the good movement and utility enough to buy an all-rounder like the War Bear for a bit more cash rather than sink money into the Battering Ram, which is generally dead weight after a short time. It's such a pain to drag it to the battlefield, losing several moves for your army each turn. I mostly plunder the things...

So, I have to disagree there. My suggestion was to make him simply ignore walls rather than provide siege. However, I'm beginning to like the idea of a +5 siege unit with extra utility, similar to the Catapult's position as a high-utility +10 3-turner. It has 3HP, 20+10 on attack. That's some nice extra utility we don't see with the Ram. I am quite sure the War Bear would not supplant the ram either if the price is right; it will still be preferable to use Battering Rams where roads are available.

I also don't see a problem with an expensive 10-strength flier (15 on defense). We have Eagles, Elves, and Wizards as highly effective counters.

Horyu,

[smursh]

The crow is basically a flying scout. Not much real combat value other than early game attacks on undefended cities.

Still if you want a 1 turn combat unit the strength should be on the weak side. Probably no higher than 8(= to orc) with no more than +4 city(maybe even just +2 city). Anything more is too valueable compared to other 1 turn monsters.

Consider:
Crow vs. scout scout gets anti-air plus 1UL
Eagle vs. other 2 turners: strength 13, super low. how do you make a 1 turn unit even close.
Griffon: compare vs. spider, barely stronger at 3 turns vs. 1 turn.

All flying units have a trade off, less power or more turns to produce. Any new flyers must have similar handicaps.